Rugga World reader, Shields, explores our tight five combinations and postulates that there is reason behind Jake’s thinking
Before you read this article please be aware of two things. Firstly, I am a Jake White fan and secondly I have never played lock in my life. I thus write this article to get some information from those in the know and to hopefully influence some of your critique against the squad, and specifically against Albert VD Berg.
Few of you will argue against the scrum and the line-out being the most important set-phases in the game. Most International coaches seem to be obsessed with these facets and for good reason. The reasons why this is so should be well known to all who comment on this site, if a little obscure to the average Voldy muppet. For this reason I will not dwell on it.
My understanding of these two plays is that in each play there are 2 or 3 players whose communication or lack of it can make or break the set-piece. In the scrum the No 9 and the No 2 must be in unison with the call and the tempo of execution. With the line-out the No 2 and the Jumper (usually 4 or 5) must know the call with the no 9 having to understand where the ball will be delivered. So to deduct from the above logic it is sufficient to say that on any given day, and in any given match, the communication between players no 2, 4/5 and 9 must be very good to ensure the successful execution of these vital set pieces.
Furthermore it is logical to suggest that the longer these players play together as a combination, the more chances they have of communicating well, which subsequently ensures the better execution of the set piece.
Is it therefore odd to find in our current Springbok setup 2 such combinations which play together (and will be expected to play together even more during the Super 14) for the Sharks and the Bulls?
Lets look at combination one: Fourie Du Preez feeds Gary Botha/Chiliboy in the scrum ; and Botha/Chiliboy feeds Matfield/Bakkies/Roussouw/Wannenberg/Spies in the line-out, with Du Preez in on the call. All are current Springboks and all will play together regularly during the Super 14 months before the World Cup.
In combination 2: Ruan Pienaar feeds John Smit in the scrum and in the line-out, Smit feeds Ackerman/VD Berg/Muller with Pienaar in on the call. All are current Springboks who will play together regularly during the Super 14 months before the World Cup.
All of a sudden it seems outrageous to even contemplate selecting a player like Barend Pieterse out of the Blue to come and learn the Bok line-out strategy and to gel with players whom he will never play with bar the odd Bok game?
Looking at this rationale it will not surprise me to see a player like Bismarck Du Plessis come in should Botha/Chillyboy get injured. This to keep the dual combination setup in place. By the same token it will not surprise to see all 4 players replaced should the combination not fire. If Barends continues to impress and say the Sharks combo fall by the wayside, we can expect to see Strauss and Duncan enter the fray together with Claasens. Or Tiaan Liebenberg together with Skeate, Vd Merwe and Bolla?
Am I reading too much into this combination or does it make sense to anyone else? Point is the form or impact of an individual player (such as VD Berg) become irrelevant in such a scenario. No matter how good any other provincial lock performs it will still be a gamble to select him for Bok duty if he does not operate within such a combination on a continuous basis during the Super 14 and the Currie Cup.
[Thank you to Shields for leaping into the unknown and offering us his thoughts for debate.]
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November 7th, 2006 at 10:12 am
Shields, fair enough, but surely the Smit-Muller-Ackermann-Pienaar combination on its own would be sufficient, without needing van den Berg? Let’s face it, he adds very little in terms of his overall game.
November 7th, 2006 at 10:39 am
That was a nice piece hey.
November 7th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Well done Shields, you get down and dirty in the murky areas of the set piece most well.
November 7th, 2006 at 10:43 am
Good calls shields
I question though why a player like Vd Bergh is necessary if one takes Pieterse into a squad and take two weeks to teach him the calls and combinations. Surely he can then fit in and know these, the way say Juan Smith would and does?
November 7th, 2006 at 10:45 am
Smith is only in there as a token non-Bulls loose forward
November 7th, 2006 at 10:57 am
David,
it is a game of ratio’s or balanace I suppose.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:04 am
I think Albert’s not a bad bloke, but he’s not a international lock, we have Johan Muller, Barend Pieterse, Francios v Schouenburg{spelling??}Danie “so slow, bar fighting” Ressouw and one of the wp locks all ahead of him
November 7th, 2006 at 11:06 am
Christo,
But most of those guys don’t know the calls.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Nice one, Shields.
I suspect most coaches will try and keep certain combinations together but I doubt it would be at the expense of an outstanding individual.
It’s interesting to see that Jake is about to, if speculation is to be believed, introduce a back three comprised of not only rookies but rookies from 3 seperate provinces.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:11 am
“Postulate”? Surely you mean “summise” or better still “guess”
November 7th, 2006 at 11:16 am
Rasputin, and only 1 of those three will play in their regular positions, also displacing one regular in the back three to an inside back!
November 7th, 2006 at 11:16 am
But what beter time to teach them the calls than now on this tour, come world cup time, all your’e line out options will know the calls, and I dont think that the calls are that difficult to learn. We dont want a few injuries in the world cup and then the new players dont know the calls.(sorry about the spelling I am afrikaans)
November 7th, 2006 at 11:18 am
christo,
You are preaching to the converted. Will we ever get to the bottom of the Snake’s brainfarts?
November 7th, 2006 at 11:23 am
St M, if it had been anyone other than Shields I’d tend to agree with you, surmise would be a more accurate description.
However, Shields is a man of very firm convictions, so postulates is how it shall remain!
November 7th, 2006 at 11:29 am
But you’re right, it’s not entirely the correct use of the word.
Although, given that Shields is arguing the case that coaches use provincial combinations for certain positions, one could say that it is a statement or assumption that is agreed by everyone to be so obvious or self-evident that no proof is necessary.
Still, I won’t overly defend my usage of the word because you’ve got a valid point.
07 November 2006
St M 1
Raspy 0
Got some catching up to do!
November 7th, 2006 at 11:33 am
How hard can it be to learn lineout calls? Shit, these okes are professionals, are they not? It’s their job, for glod’s sake!
November 7th, 2006 at 11:38 am
Robd,
Yeah but the headmaster thinks they are slow learners.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:39 am
By the by, people, the Sharks, at least, haven’t closed down for a 3 month hiatus.
They’re still operating their website and still putting up interesting stories.
Pop along to http://www.sharksrugby.co.za and explore a bit, even if only to vote for your favourite Flasher Girl of the 2006 season.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:39 am
robdylen
Thats what I say, how hard can it be, if they study the calls every night and practise it in the training field, they must be able to learn it fast???
November 7th, 2006 at 11:40 am
Rob,
It’s not only the calls mate. Its about knowing the other player. Every player has has a different style of play and with that come little differences in their way of doing things. If 2 players play enough games together then they start to get to know what the other will do in certain circumstances. This allows the whole to be more than the sum of it’s 2 parts.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:40 am
Ras,
Please do not mention girls. I am not in the mood to post pics.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:41 am
I think you’re safe, Duiwel is on nappy duty.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:42 am
So how many times have Danie Rossouw and Johan Ackermann played together in the past two years?
Or even Ackerman and V/d Berg. If I recall Van den Berg usually replaced Ackermann during the S14.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:43 am
Donner,
I have absolutely no idea. Rob?
November 7th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Wales put out a hooker/lock combination where all three came from seperate provinces!
It’s not usual practise though.
Tai McIsaac was throwing in to his Force colleague, Nathan Sharpe and the ball was being received by his new Force buddy, Matt Giteau.
Anyone think of a very obvious case in point where the hooker has no club/provincial relation to his locks or scrummy?
John Smit throwing in to Jake’s first choice pairing of Victor/Bakkies and the ball being received by Ricky springs to mind.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:50 am
Christo
Amen to preaching to the converted.
How bladdy hard can it be.
I mean maybe Methos can help because he still plays but in my days of playing (80′s) the hooker made a call. You surreptitiously ensured that your props were around you because you were not allowed to lift but if you had no supprt oppo players would knock you out.
You’d hear the call for your name.
The hooker would throw and you’d jum and catch it with your props acsually leaning on you to support themselves.
Now please tell me what the hell is so hard about that. I mean if I could go from beig a blindside flanker to being a lock in one week, know the calls and take the ball properly how can you tell me experienced international locks (I count Super 14 as international exposure) can’t do exactly the same thing in two weeks?
Or am I missing something.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Davids,
How on earth did the Bok selectors let you slip through their nets?
November 7th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Anyone notice that the AB’s almost got away with another try by the quick one two from the ‘hooker’ to ‘receiver’ on Sunday?
Only just called back because, as KSA pointed out, the ‘hooker’ had received the ball from another player and thus invalidated the quick throw.
They’re very alert, these All Blacks. Wide awake, you won’t often see them retreating from a penalty with their backs to the opposition.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Ackers and vd Berg haven’t played together at all. Ackers and Muller is the combo that should be playing.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Probably will be, Rob.
Daniesaurus will go to 7.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
There has been precious little news on Bok training sessions. Has anybody heard anything?
November 7th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
yeah, Ras. I mean that is the combo that should be starting, with Albert on the bench.
I can’t even attempt to pick a sensible loose forward combo with the guys Jake has on tour.
Smith at 8, maybe, with Spies at 7. 6 is anybody’s guess. Gary Botha? Deon Carstens?
November 7th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
The All Blacks conceded three tries and this annoyed Henry so he’ll be having a talk with the team about that. Henry blames rusty combinations for the lapses.
From the AB thread. Funny that the AB’s also have a problem just learning the calls.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Ollie
I can think of a myriad of reasons
One being I’m not a BM
Two being that I have stung them with so much criticism that if I ever get a job there it’d only be so that they can arrange a convenient work related ‘accident’ for me!
I have a theory though and its premised on the move tp professionalism
In the old days most okes who played rugby were intelligent amateurs like Dr Uli Schmidt, Dr Divan Serfontein, Adv Adolf Malan, attorneys Wahl Baartman and Francois Pienaar and a myriad of other varsity bright sparks.
These days you just need to be a good player. School marks don’t matter. As a dof 19 year old you get contracted and off you go. No brains required. Hence my theory is that the old bright sparks still become attorneys and cotors (Like Theuns Stofberg’s laaitie who is damned good but refuses to go pro) and the faded lights are all that’s left.
So coaches spend their first year teaching them not to drool or hang their mouth open when spoken to, or not to make monosylabbic noises when addressed.
It takes them longer to understand sentences longer than three words.
i.e. modern players are too dof to learn quickly.
Francois VD Merwe is an exception of course.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Rob you idiot!
You’re such a rugby cretin
Didn’t you see that Jacque Fourie actually has the perfect build, size and charachteristics to be a superb openside flanker?
And don’t get me started about what a brilliant 8th man Jean De Villiers will make. He has height, speed, a great break, vision… why he’s the next Bobby Skinstead!
And didn’t you know that Jake reckons Akona Ndungane is the perfect blindsider? I mean he’s black just like Solly Tybilika.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Of course I would have picked Fourie at openside… BUT HE’S INJURED!
I’m not sure how anyone can expect us to beat England without our first choice no 6.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Thanks Ras. Was just about to put that up…
November 7th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Very sad news about Bliksem. Another victim of the carnage on the roads.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Rob, I’ll delete it!
November 7th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Ja, without Jacque we’re screwed but totally
November 7th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Ras?
What about Bliksem?
November 7th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
And…..whoosh, it’s gone!
November 7th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
David, he died in a head-on collision with a taxi.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
There is a condolences thread on Keo for anyone wishing to say farewell.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Don’t worry too much, Ras. I’ll just have to find something else to post!
Lots of news around.
NOT!
November 7th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
Ok – thanks.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
Fark!! How many more times does Joke want to blame everything on players being left at home.
He needs to show confidence in his choices. Hoe moet die donners voel wat hy daar het. They will always play under the burden of being a second choice!!
Probably their fault that they have to travel 20 mins to get to the gym.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
Okay left condolensces for him on voldy
Damn man that’s just awful
November 7th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Jake amazes me.
He leaves players at home then makes excuses for a poor perfomrance before the game is played by blaming the fact that these players weren’t there.
Amazing!
November 7th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
I think I need to compile a best-of summary of Jake’s finest moments!
Should make for exhilirating reading!
November 7th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Damn- I also just broke my oath and posted on Voldy. Poor dude.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Happens all too often.
His name was Gerhardt Potgieter and it sounds like his family was in the car.
Very very sad.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Tragic.
South Africa’s roads are awful.
November 7th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Can somebody answer me this question – why does Jake always pick players to counter the opposition’s players?
Surely, especially when you’re playing a team a lot lower down the rankings than you, they should be the ones picking the players to contra out your strengths?
In that way, if Jake had picked a lighter faster pack maybe the English would have included a few lighter quick players to counter our quick mobile foragers?
November 7th, 2006 at 12:59 pm
Ackers and vd Berg haven’t played together at all. Ackers and Muller is the combo that should be playing.
And Muller will be on the bench
Farkit – Dawie is vandag snaaks:
So coaches spend their first year teaching them not to drool or hang their mouth open when spoken to, or not to make monosylabbic noises when addressed.
It takes them longer to understand sentences longer than three words.
November 7th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Ackers and vd Berg haven’t played together at all. Ackers and Muller is the combo that should be playing.
Comment by robdylan© — November 7, 2006 @ 12:00 pm
Again I agree- with Pieterse on the bench
Well written Shields- but “understanding” Albert would have meant- leaving him at home
November 7th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
Boertjie
Cynicism
The fallback of all joirnalists…. eventually…. I just seem to have suffered its onset a bit earlier than anyone else, aside from Donner!
November 7th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
I just thought of something nuh?
If Bobby Skinstead’s coming back to play for the Sharks next year right?
Then why hasn’t Jake White drafted him yet…. given his propensity to love people like Gaffie, Percy, Snyman Os etc.
November 7th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
Nee wat, ek dink die artikel is net in ‘n baie beperkte mate reg. Dit is baie belangrik dat kombinasies goed met mekaar moet kan kommunikeer, maar dit is Jake en sy hulpafrigters se werk om manne van verskillende provinsies te laat gel. Albert vd Berg hoort nie daar nie en Johan Ackerman ook nie, en julle gaan dit die naweek sien, al is John Smit ook van Natal gaan dit NIKS help nie. Dan is Shields se redenasie ook in sy moer.
November 7th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Test
November 7th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Davids,
Now when was I a cynic?
November 7th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Test failed. Try again!!!!
November 7th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Methos?
Wats dit?
Ballas
Ek stem saam.
Miskien kan iemand verduidelik hoe die kombinasie van Aaron Mauger en Tana Umaga so briljant was as hulle net op inernasionale vlak saamgespeel het.
Of miskien hoekom Mark Andrews, James Dalton and Krynauw Otto so uitstekend was as hulle al drie vir ander provinsies gespeel het?
Joel Stransky en Joost
Henri Honniball en Joost
Jean De Villiers en Jacque Fourie
Dick Muir en Andre Snyman
Jerry Collins, Soio’alo en McCaw
Ag nee wat
Dis die ciach se werk om veskillende spelers te vat en hulle ‘sterk en swak punte in te werk en ‘n span te bou.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Donner
Never….
November 7th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Aldo jou wetter
is of course coach
November 7th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Davids,
Ek stem saam. As hierdie waar was, hoe het van die spanne in die verlede dan sukses behaal. 20 jaar terug was daar 16 “provinsies” gewees en daar waas mak mak een van elk in die Bok span. Waar kom die redenasie dan in?
Die probleem is dat ons nie meer spelers het wat kan of toegelaat word om te dink nie.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
“Before you read this article please be aware of two things. Firstly, I am a Jake White fan and secondly I have never played lock in my life. I thus write this article to get some information from those in the know and to hopefully influence some of your critique against the squad, and specifically against Albert VD Berg.”
hehehehe
November 7th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
I don’t see what is so difficult to undersatnd about it, really I don’t.
It’s just case of one persons line of thought.
Basically, it comes down to taking 2 guys that are good but haven’t played together or taking 2 guys are are also not bad who have played together.
Which balances in my favour? 2 entities that are really good individually or 2 entities that might not be as good individually but together offer a lot?
It’s a call that has to be made. Saturday will tell if it work or not. Don’t sweat it, there are plenty of matches to choos the other option is this does not work. After all, one can just throw the 2 extremely good players together after teaching them the calls and they will be at their best.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Ollie,
There’s a conspiracy to get your blood boiling today!
November 7th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Ras,
I coach a womens team in rugby, it takes a lot to get my blood boiling
November 7th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
It’s a call that has to be made. Saturday will tell if it work or not. Don’t sweat it, there are plenty of matches to choos the other option is this does not work
Ollie,
If fortune smiles upon us, the coach will only have three left after Saturday.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
DavidS
“in my days of playing (80’s) the hooker made a call.” – These days the designated lineout caller makes the call. For example Matfield usually calls the lineouts not Smith who is the captain although Smit will call it when he wants a certain move.
At club level we also have a designated caller, and then the receiver also has a call. That is to say how you would like the ball to be thrown to you. My calls works like this:
The Callers calls the ball to you. You now know that you are the receiver.
You call out a whole bunch of numbers with the second number for instance being the “Trigger No” So 8,”1″,4,45,Guava3
The Trigger No have these meanings.
1 – Take the ball straight up.
2 – A Dummy. You make as to go up and then stand still and then you go up.
3 – Lob, Dummy forward and then 3 steps back and up.
4 – Same as above but when you reach the last back step you run forward again and take the ball where you started.
5 – Dummy and 3 steps back and then another 2 steps back.
6 – The 2 locks switch. I usually jump @ 2, so I would go to 4 and take the ball there.
“You surreptitiously ensured that your props were around you because you were not allowed to lift”
You are still not allowed to “LIFT” but you can support the jumper in the air. That translated to the real world means that the jumper only has to jump 1cm and then the props can lift him.
Obviously it helps if the jumper can jump.
More on Lineout calls:
What some teams also do is they assign each jumper a name or code name. For instance Bakkies Botha could be anything that starts with a B. Victor Matfield anything that starts with a V and Juan Smith anything with a J.
The trigger being the 3 word. The call then: “Appels, Piesangs, brood, Konfyt, Peanut Botter, 8,18,2,4.
The first part syas who the caller is and the second bit, the numbers would say where the ball would go. Say for instance anything from 1 to 9 would be in front and 10 to 20 in the middle and over 50 at the back. and the key number being the 2′nd one, 18 in this case.
Bakkies now knows that he must get to 4 and catch the ball. So he can run around the lineout and then when the opposition is confused he goes in at 4 and goes up. He can also call how he wabts the ball himself like I mention above.
Not rocket science, if you aren’t able to pick that up with in a hour or 2 or if you are very stupid a day or 2 then you shouldn’t go to Fruit and Veg, someone might mistake you for a cabbage.
As for getting used to each guys jumping style, How difficult is it really. you spend 30 minutes practicings with the person and viola. There are only so many ways to jump. Some guys prefer to jump straight up, some guys give a step in and jump and other guys prefer to jump forward and up.
In short, I don’t beleive Albert vd Berg is there to complete the combination. A wee bit of practice would make sure that anybody that have a pulse would be able to gel with the other forwards. Jake sees something in him that I don’t. Maybe Albert promised him some of the R 740 000 that he won at the Casino.
Cheers
Cheers
November 7th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
I do notice however that some of my comments are conveniently ignored. Like the one were Henry is saying that he is unhappy with the game on Sunday because certain combinations are rusty.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
I don’t see what is so difficult to undersatnd about it, really I don’t.
Hmmmm
That might explain his long standing admiration for theSNake
at least Ollie & Shields can bond now over a “common” cause- eish almost had an aldo there “kommin”
November 7th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
It’s a call that has to be made. Saturday will tell if it work or not. Don’t sweat it, there are plenty of matches to choos the other option is this does not work
———————-
But seriously, Ollie, therein lies the flaw!
Jake’s been in charge for 34 Tests, the second highest in Springbok coaching history – yet he doesn’t know who his back-up players are yet?
November 7th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
Ollie,
You know what Jake would say about that comment of Henry?
“Ag what does he know”
November 7th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Look Ras, I think its say to say, whether you lvoe him or hate him, that Jake has very little, if any, ability to forward plan.
He just cannot see further into the future than one game. Hence his lack of planning regarding reserve players.
It also revelas his lack of planning around the bench.
What gets me is this: Jake is supposedly this awesome analyst but he doesnt seem to know that we have a bigger pack than the poms.
Again I ask the question: why does Jake pick his team to combat supposed strenghts in a team ranked three places below us?
Surely they should be picking the team to combat our strengths?
Do yuo think Jake believes we are inferior to the poms? It ssure as hell looks that way.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
Ras,
Not all of it makes sense to me either. But I do recognise that it is a farkin dificult job choosing a team.
Liike you say now, JW doesn’t seem to know who his backup is. But lets say that his backup is not on form at the moment. Then who? Let’s also through in the knowledge that he is trying to build continuity but at the same time he realises that some players are not up to the standard he has set for them, but there are some new players that have indicated some virtues that he is looking for. He has to test these players to see if he can get that virtue to the level he would like and sustain it.
The Super 14 and CC coaches don’t exactly help him out with that so he only has the chance during Bok matches.
My point is that there is just so much dynamics in a team that it is impossible to put ourselves in the selectors shoes and guess the reason behind every decision. Just no way.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
In his 34 Tests;
- he rightfully got the Victor/Bakkies combination bedded down.
- he rightfully gave Victor a kick up the derriere early on.
- he rightfully dumped TGHMQD.
- he, with enormous reluctance, finally succumbed to the overwhelming demand to pick Danisaurus at lock.
Other than that, nobody has been groomed to take over. He’s got two pensioners along for the ride, neither of whom is likely to play a part in the 2007 RWC.
I agree with taking Ackers along for the Pom tests with the sole role of getting stuck in for 50 minutes and taking the pack with him.
However, why take Albert on this particular tour when he’s got someone like Barend Pieterse who played consistently well throughout the year?
It’s one thing not to cheapen the jersey but entirely another not to reward consistently great form.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Vinnie,
Do yuo think Jake believes we are inferior to the poms? It ssure as hell looks that way.
This is what happens if a coach have no idea how to win. His principle weapon was shown up last year against the French and everybody knows how to nullify the rush defense now.
He has no more ideas and all this talk is just bullshit to let us think he is still in control.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
BTW, wasn’t it great to see the Welsh coach applauding his team after their first try instead of shouting instructions into a mic as our coaches do.
I thought that to be a brilliant gesture from him.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Lock combinations
(with 2 or more tests)
Lock Lock Tests
Mark Andrews Krynauw Otto 25
Victor Matfield Bakkies Botha 25
Just one more to go for Bakkies/Victor.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
Donner,
Also thought it was great of Andy Robinson to get out on the pitch and have a hug and personal word with all his new players.
Great gesture.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
He is still the only coach that has beaten the AB’s in the last 2 years. As somebody pointed out, of the last 4 losses the AB’s have suffered 3 have been against the Boks. So he is doing somethng right.
He listened to outside influence for the 1st game against the Frogs and we were nearly handd our arses, played his own game and we whipped them.
I admit he might not get it right all the time but he surely hasn’t disgraced us in total. There was one big wobbly patch when we went down 49 – 0 against Aus, the rest of the time we have held steady. We are knocking on the door of 2nd place in the ranking. So if all goes well this autumn we should be in 2nd posi.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
I really do think we need to get out of this mentality of: the s14 coaches arent helping Jake.
Its bullshit. He doesnt want their help. If he did he wouldnt be asking clive woodward for advice instead of his own brains trust. He also wouldnt be asking Fran Steyn’s high school coahc about how quick he is instead of Muir.
Lets get one thing very straight – Jake is on his own with no support because thats how he wants it.
The problme isnt that the s14 coaches dont support Jake, the problme is he never calls upon their experitse.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Ras,
He was handing out tissues actually
November 7th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Ollie,
Its nothing special to be number 2 mate.
Its where we belong and its at number 1 or 2 where we’ve been for pretty much 100 years.
Your standards are too low.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
However, why take Albert on this particular tour when he’s got someone like Barend Pieterse who played consistently well throughout the year?
uhum
Who consistently outplayed the “great” Victor Matfield over the last three seasons- when one on one!
November 7th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
That’s true, Ollie.
I don’t think all the invective being heaped on his head is fair given that he has dragged us back up to 3rd in the world from 6th and we had a fair amount of time at 2nd.
Plus those 3 precious wins against the All Blacks.
But – where’s the big leap forward? Why still no overseas wins of any stature?
November 7th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Vinnie,
We came from 6 when JW took over. I agree that less than 2 on average is not acceptable, but we’re getting there mate.
When our administrators sort their sh$t out then we can get up to 1 & 2 no problem. But things like hiring a team manager 1 week before tour don’t help the cause much.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Thank goodness we no longer need to hear about our record unbeaten home streak as if thats the holy grail of international rugby.
That was painful.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Ras,
3 of them coming up I hope.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Ollie,
Those things are mere details compared to the mess that Jake makes with his selections.
Personally I dont buy the old “but he took us from 6th in the world” nonsense.
We should never have been there in the first place.
If Jake had taken over from Mallett or Christie they would have fired his ass ages ago.
Jake can just be thankful that the guy he took over from was a bigger buffoon than him when it came to selections.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
how do we know how good any of Jake’s boks are, when they never play against any of the other guys?
November 7th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
OO,
Everybody was complaining about the number of caps Strauli handed out.
If you go back in history, you will see that pre professional, that also happened. Only thing is that the tests was less. THus people didn’t realise it. People were chosen on form and not past glory or promise.
Jake loves to compare the amount of tests played by overseas players to ours. It is fine, but then have a look at the form of theoverseas players. They are constantly on form. Can we say the same of our players?
I will probalby keel over and die if Jake selects a guy like Andre Hough who didn’t come throught the Craven week and U21 system.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
One one thing I agree with Ollie
For us to be number 1 – it means to be better than the Blacks
Jake White alone is not going to make that happen- that I can concede- too mant sideshows in SA Rugby- not a singular goal and everyone is pulling towards it
World Domination! That is why the AB’s are there!
But some of his own actions – are just so illogical- Alberta being the prime one- that it certainly boggles me mind!
I do not understand Coach White!
despite a very well written&spinned article by Me good FreeState-Jozi- Sydney friend – Shields
November 7th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Ollie,
I also personally dont think an away win against either the poms or the oirish will be a great leap forward especially after the poms just gave up a record to the ABs over the weekend.
They are weaker than they have ever been and probably wont be in the top 6 in world rugby for much longer.
An away win against the ABs or French, that what you need to aim for.
We’ve got one against the Ozzies already but another one agains tthem wouldnt hurt either.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
I have forgiven Rudolf already.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Thank goodness we no longer need to hear about our record unbeaten home streak as if thats the holy grail of international rugby.
That was painful.
Comment by Vinnie — November 7, 2006 @ 2:50 pm |Edit This
Vinnie, not nearly as painful as having to hear about how a Bok team has never lost with previous Jake Wonder Boy, Wayne Julies, in it!
November 7th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
“When our administrators sort their sh$t out then we can get up to 1 & 2 no problem. But things like hiring a team manager 1 week before tour don’t help the cause much.
Comment by Ollie — November 7, 2006 @ 2:50 pm”
THe administrators don’t fuck up the 80 minutes played between the four white lines. That is the responsibility of the coach and players.
And don’t come with the quota thing. It is pretty much clear cut that we have enough talented in form black players to not even discuss quotas anymore.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Donner
I agree with Coach White not to hand out caps
But isnt keeping the okes that is- past it- in the jersey- also cheapening it?
I agree on Hough
He is givin the SA Coaches- inclusiv of CoachErasmus- the bird – big time!
great stuff
November 7th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
The poms have lost 6 in a row.
One of those was agaisnt Scotalnd if I remember correctly.
If we dont beat them there’s something wrong with us, not with them.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Vinnie – let’s beat the Poms first, then talk about whether they were weak or not.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Donner
i also agree fully with your 2:57 post- despite my 2;54
Hehehe RoBD- he is a shark – aint he
November 7th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
Gürthro Steenkamp
What’s the deal people?
I’ve heard nothing, nada
Is he EVER going to recover?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
Vinnie,
I would love to accommodate you, but unfortunately it’s the Irish and English we play on this tour.
So instead of getting negative about who we should be beating but aren’t playing lets get positive about we are playing and must beat. if we win all 3 games then it is a step in the right direction.
And don’t kid yourself with the English and Irish, if they are firing on all cylinders they make fine opposition.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
Nah Rob, whether they are weak or not does not depend on whether they win against us.
Either they or weak or they arent weak.
IMO they are currently probably the weakest they have ever been.
Can you imagine the pressur eon the boks if the Argies beat them on saturday?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Another one that the geniuses in the Cape let go!
November 7th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Cool pics of Gurthro here:
http://www.sasi.co.za/static/sarugby/gurthro.php
November 7th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Ollie,
They should give us a good game – it is international rugby after all.
But in the same vein – dont kid yourself that we shouldnt win these games because we sure as shit should be giving the poms a snotting if form over the last year or world rankings are anythign to go by.
There is simply no way in hell we should be losing to the poms.
Not when they are ranked 6th in the world mate and have lost 6 on the trot.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
THe administrators don’t fuck up the 80 minutes played between the four white lines. That is the responsibility of the coach and players.
THe administrators don’t fuck up the 80 minutes played between the four white lines. That is the responsibility of the coach and players.
And don’t come with the quota thing. It is pretty much clear cut that we have enough talented in form black players to not even discuss quotas anymore.
Comment by Donner — November 7, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
Donner,
There is more to a helicopter than spinning blades, likewise there is more to the result of a rugby match than what happens between the 4 lines for 80 minutes.
If you think that for 1 minute that all is required is a coach and players in order to have a successful team then you are sadly mistaken.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Ollie,
If we hadnt broken the ABs twice in two years you may have had a point.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Vinnie,
I agree that we should win all 3, at that there is a problem if we do not. but I will wait for the outcome of the matches before I start thinking that we will lose.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Vinnie,
It’s the small things that count. The team is on the verge of being great. Every now and then there will be glimpses of what is truly possible, just give them a secure and reliable surrounding and that glimpse becomes the norm.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Ollie,
I dont think we will lose.
Dunno about the paddy game but I am dead certain we will win both against the poms – they really are just so poor that i cant see us losing.
I reckon the argies might just pip the poms this weekend. They’re fielding a superb side.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Damn, where is The Brand when I need him. He should be able to explain this better.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Ollie,
For those players there isnt a much more secure surrounding than with Jake. Once you’re in you’re in.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Ollie,
So how were we able to win the ABs three times. Two of those while VAn Ruin was still in charge.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
So coaches spend their first year teaching them not to drool or hang their mouth open when spoken to, or not to make monosylabbic noises when addressed.
It takes them longer to understand sentences longer than three words.
Our friend Rattlebones?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
Stop picking on Ollie!
I may have to change sides!
Weird development on the Bliksem thread over at Keo.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
BTW, I am neither pro or con van den Berg. It is the concept and mind set I am referrring to.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Ollie,
So how were we able to win the ABs three times. Two of those while VAn Ruin was still in charge.
Comment by Donner — November 7, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
Donner,
Read my 3:08 comment.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Rattlebone only need to understand monosylabbic words – fok jou.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
For those players there isnt a much more secure surrounding than with Jake. Once you’re in you’re in.
Comment by Vinnie — November 7, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
EXACTLY.
Even when Jake threw his toys around SARU came out and said they support him. He gets what he wants from them. He is sitting pretty when it comes to that.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Vinnie,
But how secure is JW? think the players don’t read papers?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
Ollie,
He is more secure than any coach has been since readmission.
He’s been around for about 3 years and all the drama is his own doing.
SARU cant afford to fire him.
So all in all I think he is very secure.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Ras,
Just read that.
Very weird…
November 7th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
The team is on the verge of being great
Ollie
CoachWhite dont believe in fetchers
The Best of the Rest- plays two-
That “verge” might just be a bridge tOO far
November 7th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
Anybody?
Again I ask the question: why does Jake pick his team to combat supposed strenghts in a team ranked three places below us?
Surely they should be picking the team to combat our strengths?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Vinnie
Its a game called Rugby- and that is why we love it.
Come kick-off Saturday afternoon- that rankings means almost nothing!
November 7th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
Vinnie,
I don’t know the answer to that question.
Ollie,
So when your 10 and 12 defended shitty, was it the administration’s responsibility?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Donner,
My team is self managing so I reckon the answer is yes
November 7th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Vinnie,
They do when they come and see us on our turf.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
Ollie,
Is it the adminsitration’s fault that:
1. Jake consistently picks players out of position.
2. Stick to players who is obviously out of form.
3. Doesn’t believe in a fetcher, when every ohter coach in teh world does.
4. Persist with gameplan that scavages of other teams’ mistakes instead of allowing the players to take the initiative.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Ras – doesn’t everything over that side turn weird before long?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
shit – I have just gone and checked. I hope to God that it is a hoax, even though it would be the poorest taste ever.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
Rob, if it’s a hoax, it’s pretty damned sick.
Still, for once it would be nice to hear it was a hoax or genuine mistake.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
What I can’t understand is that this one oke claims to be his cousin, surely it would take less than a minute to confirm if that is the case?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Donner,
1. This is a mute point. The coach chooses a person in a position were he thinks the player can add something to the team. It’s a case of who is playing who out of position. Is Giteau out of position now?
2. Form must return at some stage. If he chooses form player from game to game then we will be back at cap handout central and in 6 th position.
3. If the other coaches tell their teams to jump in the fire…… Get were I am going. Also, look at the last Bok games, you will see people fetching. How many balls did we lose compared to won through fetching?
4. If it is so bad why are we not back at 6th or better yet fighting for 10th position against the Argies? and for the LAST TIME, LETS SEE WHAT THE TOUR BRINGS US BEFORE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS. Clear?
November 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
I’d like to add the importance of no 8 and 10 in the decision making mix especially on the attack. After a good Super 14 one can even add AJ Venter and Butch to the Natal combo?
Like I said I do not know much about forward play but no one has yet given me a clear answer as to why this selection has not been made. In truth I also do not undertand VD Berg’s selection but I am trying to. Its easy to just critisize but sometimes it helps to delve into the context to understand certain selections. No matter how good Barend is I simply cannot see him add value in a World Cup if he is not going to combine with fellow Cheetahs in the bok setup, hence me predicting wholesale changes should one of our combinations not fire.
I dont think we will see only Barend come in and not Strauss. Same with Skeate/Vd Merwe and Liebenberg.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Ras – yeah, my point is at least he would still be alive.
Did he ever post here? I can’t remember. I just remember he wanted to kill Simon because of some comment about his mother (who had recently died).
November 7th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Ollie,
Since everyone else is picking on you, I’m going to be pedantic and join the club!
1. This is a mute point.
Unless the point is silent, the word you’re looking for is moot
:razz::razz::razz:
Hehehehehe, sorry Ollie!
November 7th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Ras – yeah, my point is at least he would still be alive.
Did he ever post here? I can’t remember. I just remember he wanted to kill Simon because of some comment about his mother (who had recently died).
Comment by robdylan© — November 7, 2006 @ 3:37 pm |Edit This
Yes, that’s my point too, Rob. It would be great to hear it’s a hoax.
Yes, Bliksem posted from New Zealand on our other site.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Geez that was funny Ras.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
shields,
I’ve never liked Albert so I’d criticise his selection in any team.
He strikes me as a lightweight. And he runs funny.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Ras,
Thanks for the correction.
I wish that it was a silent point though. hehehehe
November 7th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
NEWS24:
Kabamba to captain Bok Sevens
“Dynamic Cheetahs flank Kabamba Floors has been appointed as Springbok Sevens captain for the first two tournaments in the IRB Sevens Series.”
At least recognised for what he offers in the sevens version!!
November 7th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
As for players playing out of position: I think it should be the national coach who calls which player fits in where. Is that not what the AB’s are doing?
Yet White goes a bit nutter sometimes selecting Habana at wing (With Bulls then doing the same) only for White to now pick him at 13. However every coach looks where they have faulted and White appears to introduce backline players on the wing (Jean a good example) so maybe its his strategy who knows.
If this works then White knows he can select either Habana or Pretorius should Fourie get injured in WC. Same with Jean and Olivier. We now know both can play on the wing. We basically sitting with a backline full of all-rounders and thats not a bad thing.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Heheheheh
Now I can do it to Shields
Shields
You damned little pretend Mark Keohane wannabe bliksem you!
Look what you’ve done to this website!
This is the worst sensationalist Keoesque rubbich I’ve ever seen written with a sole view of eliciting hits.
You blerrie Yeoville Zef
Yours Sincerely
The East Rand Thug
November 7th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
I’ll make a poor effort to defend Shields viewpoint by misquoting from all sorts of places.
Combinations are more than tossing it to no2 or 4 in the line out, I think there are a fair number of moves which all the players are expected to make depending where the ball goes. I think they will have defined defensive roles too when it’s the opposition throw, with some delegated to block the mauls, wrap up the ball carrier or loop around for the peel off the back. Although many of these roles are probably drilled endlessly and practised at provincial level, it’s not unlikely that your individual role and combination plays will be very different at Bok level. It’s even possible that they change roles from game to game (except Matfeld who is basically the third centre)
Albert at 105 Kg is not tiny but lacks effectiveness in the maul, probably as much as Matfield does. I hope he has a good game and gets a couple of nice runs. He should be used as part of the cover defence if the game is tight, I’ve seen him run down a couple of ‘speedsters’ over the years.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
shields,
I think thats a very bad thing.
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Personal opinion.
Ive played with guys like that and much prefer playign with specialists. Guys that know a position inside out.
Also those players get to know the opposition inside out.
For example, there a good chance that Noone will be playing centre against us in the world cup…
November 7th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
“However every coach looks where they have faulted and White appears to introduce backline players on the wing (Jean a good example) so maybe its his strategy who knows.”
Shields,
Interesting point. Maybe he selects them on wing, becasue he knows with his gameplan the chances of them getting the ball are slim to nothing.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Albert used to score tries only Spies can score today. He is one fast ‘maergat’ and seems to be technically sound. Again there is no way that as an individual player he can offer more than Barend Pieterse. I know that as well as anyone else.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Harry Viljoen believed in combinations
That’s enough for me to reject the idea out of hand
November 7th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
he still looks funny when he runs.
His knees look bigger than his feet.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
I agree with you Vinnie. I much prefer specialists as well but in a World Cup where you play (if you do well) 6 hard games in a very short period of time then I’d like to know that the 3 backs picked as subs can fill any position. We now have a group of backs (with russel etc.) who can easily slot in and understand defensive patterns from various positions on the field. Defence wins the World Cup.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
The Floors story is going up at 4.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
And Vinnie no-one looks more funny when he runs than Roussouw. Perhaps Ernst Joubert. He runs like a bad club 3rd team wing.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:56 pm
Albert should be playing 7
November 7th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
You sound like JAke shields.
IMO defense will not win this world cup.
Me thinks you’ll need to be able to score tries to beat the likes of ireland, france and the kiwis.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
People always say defense wins the WC.
So if both teams defend, why would there be a need for it as nobody will be attacking?
Just asking.
Why not take the initiative and be the attacker. If you score more tries than the opposition, chances are pretty good that you will win the game.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Vinnie,
Snap!!
November 7th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Yoh – sounds like the rumours of bliksem’s death may after all have been greatly exaggerated.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Robd,
It that is the case, I can promise you that there will never be a personal thread like that on Voldy ever.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Donner,
I love the way everyone says defense wins world cups but Australia have won it twice…
Fact is it was only 2003 that was won by “defense”.
That “defensive” strategy was in fact a monster pack, Martin Johnson and a superb kicker.
And a whole lot of luck that all the other big teams misfired.
That same England team would not beat the all blacks today.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Ag you cynical lot of old bullockses of course you know what I mean. NZ has the best attack but more than likely not win it because they do not defend all that flash. So if any team manages to sht them down on the day its game over. Ireland will not score a try but can still win the world cup through solid defence and a very good goal kicker.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
shields,
world cups are not won on attack or defensive strategies.
They are won by delivering 5 or 6 good consistent performances.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
In a WC final my backline will be:
Du Preez
Butch
Olivier
Fourie
Habana
De Villiers
Fortuin
I simply am not convinced that you want Jean at 12 in such a tight defensive game.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Vinnie,
It is something I could never understand. Why the hell do something in a defensively orientated mindset. If you want to win you need to be offensively orientated.
I think we won the 95 WC based on defense, BTU we only played that way in the final. Everybody worried about Lomu instead of taking the bloody ball and running the shit out of the ABs.
Nobody realise that Lomu was weak on defense.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Not a snowballs hope in hell will Butch make my line-up if we’re playing a final.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
True Vinnie. I also liked the way the 95 Boks played with a B-team in the two minnow games. So its 4 consistant games in 5 weeks for the A-team.
BUT all 15 need to love to tackle.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
I just dont see how you want to win what is effectively 6 game tournament if you’re not looking to score points.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
Shields,
You will never win the WC with Butch at 10. AP is the only one that can take us there.
Fourie is not a 12. In the form that Olivier is now, I would put him at 12. Fourie to play 15 where he made his name as a 19 year old.
I agree that JdV is not a 12, but not only becasue he can’t defend. I have yet to see the apparently attacking brilliance by him.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
My World Cup backline:
9: Pienaar
10: Petoors
11: de Villiers
12: Barritt
13: Fourie
14: Habana
15: Fortuin
November 7th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
If everybody plays an attacking game then you need good defense to keep out a good attack.
So, in my books, you need a solid defense when you are defending and a good attacking game for when you have ball in hand.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
In any case if you want a defensive backline, you go for Barry at 12 and Olivier at 13.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Fortuin
I simply am not convinced that you want Jean at 12 in such a tight defensive game.
Comment by shields — November 7, 2006 @ 4:11 pm |Edit This
No offence to a hard grafter but he’s so sloooooooooooooooooooooooow……..
November 7th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Fortuin, I meant
November 7th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Rob,
I would have blasted you if I thought you were serious.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Yeah shields thats a given.
But I think every rugby players needs to know how to tackle and want to do it.
I just dont think you should plan to win games by only a few points because you’re scared to lose.
What happens then is that you give away an intercept try and crash out of the competition because you dont know how to score points and all your games are close.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Donner I used to only appreciate attacking play. I hated the defensive mindset but mind uo I was a FS fan with no silverware. Rassies teams have shown me the value there is in being able to defend well. Much like the criket term: hit the rubbish. The backline should be patient and focussed on defense and once they are awarded good possesion they can hit the rubbish.
Just look how the ‘attack-minded’ WP team was totally outplayed against the Cheetahs in all fascets including attack, with the Cheetahs being a supposedly defence minded team.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
It is not defence that wins World Cups. Nor attack. Not in the sense that I mean.
The World Cup is won by kicking and refs.
By the time of the final its usually 2 well matched teams and after 6 matches both sides have a pretty thorough idea as to how the other plays. It then comes down to who can kick the goals. And refs like W*tson (the self important idiot who dreams of blowing for the decisive penalty as the clock hits full time) try to make the game close.
It why England will hope to have JW installed at 12. Charlie H is the better fly half its just that he’s erratic with his kicking under pressure. If JW doesnt make it. Van Gisbergen will crack the nod at 15.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
So its not defence or attack. Its pressure. Pressure in defence, pressure in attack. The oppistion get frustrated and give away penalties.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Ras you are right. Fortuin is a donkey. I will not bring him near a Tri-Nations game but in the north his boot adds more value than his lack of speed deducts.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
We are investing too much ‘strategy’ in the world cup anyway. A world cup is one month out of 48 months.
You have an eye towards the world cup but plan to be successful today and for the future, regardless of world cups.
I will slit my wrists if we win the world cup and proceed to play like England for the following 4 years.
FOUR years is a seriously looooooooong time, boeta!
November 7th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Shields,
There is a balance in everything and WP’s young team haven’t gotten that yet.
The problem is that people want to focus on defense to win. Sorry that won;t work.
THat is Jake’s problem. What was the frist thing he introduced. A defensive structure that only allow you to score points of opposition mistakes.
How long was that successful? Not even two years.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Dan Carter looks very special with the boot. If he can get injured to time for the RWC it will be a wide open field.
Woudl you Pretorious to kick under pressure. Not sure. Has he ever played a pressure match in his career?
November 7th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Donner – I was being serious
November 7th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Ollie
I see you called a while back.
Hellkom sorted me yesterday after being thin-banded for 7 days.
Modem kaked and they could not tell me that on the phone!!!
But it is soooooo good to be back and read the threads.
Shields well done on taking the ‘leap of faith’ and writing your own article.
I enjoy you ‘fresh’ angle to an old story.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Ras,
THat is the problem. We have slumped to the standards of the Poms where the WC is everything.
Winning consistently is the only thing.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
I agree St Mich. It is essentially the amount of pressure your team can put on the enemy – and that goes for attack and defence. Thats why the playing style of the Boks in Tri-Nations 2005 was well thought out. They did not have the punch to kill teams with attack but they applied loads of pressure.
And yes you need a kicker who can convert that pressure into points.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Rasputin.
You have to be kidding me. The RWC is the ultimate is defines careers, years and even some lives.
What exactly in the Boks last 3 years would you have not given up for RWC win? A couple of home wins vs NZ?
November 7th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Robd,
Bwhahahahahahahahahahhaha!!!!
Barrit Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahaaaaa
November 7th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
StM,
SIX IN A ROW!!!!!
November 7th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Plus, we simply don’t have the commercial opportunities to be gained from a world cup in the manner that England did.
Winning the world cup was filthily lucrative for them but simply wouldn’t have anywhere near the same impact in SA.
Yes, we would make money and secure sponsorships on the back of it but to nowhere near the extent of the hundreds of millions of pounds that the eRFU attracted.
Yes, the title is a great one to carry, believe me I’d be proud as punch but not at the cost of playing like chumps for four years because we put all our eggs in one basket.
We are due a mass exodus of senior Boks:
Os du Randt
Percy Montgomery
Victor Matfield
Bakkies Botha (probably)
Joe van Niekerk (probably)
Danie Rossouw
etc.
I think a lot of guys are just hanging in until the RWC is over.
It’s dangerous when a coach is allowed to become a cult figure. Usually when he walks, loads of resources walk with him.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
The World Cup is the only time when north and south are equally interested in each others game. Only then do we get to learn who their players are and the strategies they play with. Inbetween we are too concerned with our own little competitions etc. Thats why ONLY the WC will be respected as a yardstick of who is the best. Yes us serious rugby fans all know that NZ is always on top or have been for many a year but there is no doubt in my mind that England are the champs. The same applies for rugby fans all over the globe.
Yes we dont want to slide like the poms (or even us with Lions tour) but hell the WC is the prize.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
I wonder if NZ feel the same. Would they give up there no. 1 ranking to, let’s say, 4 if they could have the RWC in their cabinet right now?
November 7th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Bradley may have some way to go yet, but is the best defensive number 12 in the country, bar none.
And I’ll fight anyone who disagrees.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Dan Carter looks very special with the boot. If he can get injured to time for the RWC it will be a wide open field.
Woudl you Pretorious to kick under pressure. Not sure. Has he ever played a pressure match in his career?
Comment by StMichel — November 7, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
There is always Luke McCalister that can hand the Poms their arses.
The ABs do not throw aal their eggs in one basket as the Poms did pre 2003.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Ras and Shields 2 erudite postings. I salute both your wsidsom and learned words.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Robd,
We know.
That you will fight that is. On Barrit, well lets not pick a fight.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
StM,
You don’t have much time left to savour the trophy, old chap.
I can’t see England putting together a team good enough to defend it.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
I see the reports of Bliksem’s demise may be a tad premature given that Keo has now removed the posting.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Do you think the NZers even remember what the World Cup looks like? He he.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Well Ollie, I didnt realise you were such a doyen of predictions. Who knows?
England have a pretty comfortable passage to the final. Avoiding Aus and NZ until the final game.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
I have no problem with putting all ones eggs in one basket but I believe that no coach should stay beyond a WC. the e new 4 yeantire management should be replaced with a new one for 4 years,
November 7th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Has he removed it, St M? I was wondering why refreshing the comments wasn’t eliciting any further comment.
Strange old tale that one.
Poor Ig & Keo. They meant well.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
StM
I agree AND don’t forget – the team who are able to keep all together for 6 weeks of ultimate pressure.
There are no second chances or next years at the world cup.
World Cup is now or never.
So in the final analysis the World Cup is won by the team who is Mentally Toughest.
And surely there can be no doubt that the Engalnd team of 2003 was Mentally the Toughest for a long time.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Bradley may have some way to go yet, but is the best defensive number 12 in the country, bar none.
And I’ll fight anyone who disagrees.
Comment by robdylan© — November 7, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
Bwahahahaha.
You got to be joking Rob.
Both about Bradley and about fighting with us.
Let me translate what you said from Durban English to normal English: “Bradley Tarquin Barritt is shit at the moment but maybe some day he’ll learn to tackle. I dont know when but because he is the father of my love child I believe it will happen some day before he retires.”
November 7th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Well StM, I did predict a loss of 15 points by England on Sunday. I was 6 out, does that qualify me as a doyen?
November 7th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
St Mich,
Mate, the only reason you value the WE trophy so highly is because you have won it and have nothing else to brag about it.
If you hadnt already won it you would have said it doesnt count and is a meaningless competiution only played every 4 years. And you would have said consistency is more important.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
Graham Henry has made ten changes to the All Blacks team
November 7th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
Good – at least there’ll be no evidence that I actually sullied my good name by posting there.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
I also have no problem with the mentioned players going aborad after the WC. The problem is to get them back to share their knowledge. Andre Vos should be a Bok consultant on every single UK tour.
We need more players to go play in Oz as well, and we need some players to cross to league. This way our game will become stronger, especially at schools level.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
How can he be the father of my love child unless he is me?
Didn’t they teach you okes basic logic in Cape Town?
November 7th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Vinnie come, come now not true. Do I boast that we pump your boys every tme they go over to HQ? Never mention it other than to identify opportunities for improvement in SA rugby. Nor will I gloat after the next 2 victories.
Ollie, so you were wrong once. You need to be consistently right. Do you always predict correctly that the boks lose at hq?
November 7th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Okay Rob – let me explain this to you carefully… maybe you’ll gte it this time…
Have you just had a child?
Did somebody sleep with your missus to conceive that child?
I do find it mildly disturbing that your first thought was that you had intercourse with your rugby hero…
November 7th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Shields, you’ve broken the 200 mark!
Not bad on your first attempt, old soul, not bad at all!
November 7th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
StM,
Wrong only in the details not in the result.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
Nor will I gloat after the next 2 victories.
Comment by StMichel — November 7, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
You have no idea how correct you are…
There will be no bragging from your camp…
November 7th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Gentlemen,
I must of course set the record streight. I am off to HQ on the 18th but due to unforseen circumstance on Sunday I will be leaving the country for a week and will not be able to share my useful insights and learnings on where it went wrong for the boks. I have also had to give away my 2nd pair of tickets for the 2nd test. To two Saffas let it be known. It is after all their world cup final.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
I wonder if we can design a framework for every year leading up to the WC consisting of what should be the priorities etc.?
Example:
Year one. New staff. Many new players in, many old ones abroad. Loads of gambles. Slow signs of a new attacking strategy etc.
Year 2. Consolidate on new strategies. Bring in new players. Main focus is testing players on the highest level. Filter the good from the bad.
Year 3. Start looking at the core group. Settle combinations. Start winning some games.
Year 4. Win at all costs, avoid player burn-out,focus on metal strength for the WC.
Any suggestions? Fans should for example know that every new coach has this time-frame to work with and can judge the coach accordingly.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
We need more players to go play in Oz as well, and we need some players to cross to league. This way our game will become stronger, especially at schools level.
Comment by shields — November 7, 2006 @ 4:46 pm |Edit This
——————–
To a certain degree we have these types of players available for their input, Shields.
They just never get called.
Look at Stef Nel or Andre Bester, both with a great deal of Irish coaching experience.
Has anyone bothered to ever pick up the phone to Alan Solomons, coached an Irish provincial side to cup victory.
Pieter Muller is plying his trade in Japan.
We don’t have a great tradition of ex-players getting involved in the game since it went pro.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Vinnie – you sick bastard, I see what you’re getting at, but I don’t think he was old enough at the time.
November 7th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Gentlemen,
I must of course set the record streight. I am off to HQ on the 18th but due to unforseen circumstance on Sunday I will be leaving the country for a week and will not be able to share my useful insights and learnings on where it went wrong for the boks. I have also had to give away my 2nd pair of tickets for the 2nd test. To two Saffas let it be known. It is after all their world cup final.
Comment by StMichel — November 7, 2006 @ 4:51 pm |Edit This
Pah! Thanks, St M, we could have raffled them here!
November 7th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
From the Bliksem thread I take it you’re having a soirre in the Twickers parking lot?
November 7th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Rob,
I didnt think the legal age of consent would bother you…
November 7th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
I’m off to twickers on the 18th…
November 7th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
StM
Are the two Saffas cleaning toilets before or after the match
November 7th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Vinnie you lucky Bastard
November 7th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Ras old chap,
keep up the good work on the site and you can come as my guest the next time the boks tour.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Yip I know.
I’ll email you guys a picture tomorrow showing my 8 seater dinner table covered in tickets.
Superb!
November 7th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Thank heavens this year I will be able to enjoy the games from the comfort of my living room. Attended the last 3 Autumn International years and its crap. Boks dont perform. Bad expensive beer. Hoorendous looking species they call ‘girls’ over there. Bas expensive hotels. Bad expensive tourist attractions. Kak weather. The list goes on……
November 7th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
Vinnie
You are now even more of a Bastard
Shoulder doing well????
November 7th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
Shields,
Good God man. London and Dublin have never been full of more attractive women. Both cities put to CT to shame. The Eastern European invasion has drastically altered the make up of the populace. All you need is a bit of charm, wit and banter. Ok maybe you are right to stay at home.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
I’ll take you up on that, St M!
Okey dokey.
Overs skedovers!
Offski!
Laterski!
Enjoyski!
Ollie & Shields, you defended your corner very well.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Shields
I think the Boks might perform a little better this year,
Think….Hope…… I always get those two confused.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
StM
So I take it you have moved on from Hyacinth then…….
November 7th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Yes St Mich you right Eastern Europe has helped the situation immeasurably.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
So Ras you say there are two ‘camps’ now on the Ruggaworld just like there is two camps within the ANC succession debate. Ollie and I will be the Mbeki camp and you lot can be the ‘Zuma’ camp. Agreed then.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
shields,
Just don’t hang on to an EE too long. Fine wine and them are not comparable.
KSA,
Looks like he has….. probably to old EE women hehehehe
November 7th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
Cheers Ras, Have a good evening.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
The uneducated masses supporting the populist view with little or no regard for the consequences of their support VS the educated minority supporting a consitant, dedicated and worthy leader.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
hehehehehe
Shields, where did you steal that pearler from?
November 7th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Ollie
Did they get your view on rugby is more than what happens between the 4 lines for 80 minutes?
November 7th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
No I am married to one of those (one in 5000) beautiful Irish women. I left SA saying i will marry the first beautiful irish girl I see. It took me 5 years!
November 7th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
thats a perspective shields, but not sure i’d go along with White on this selection, the Ackerman one makes more sense for this tour. If you want a lineout specialist, Pieterse is the way forward, best in S14 for the last 2 years and better then Vic in the tight.
anyway, i am with you and ollie, the Ireland game is crucial tho and will set the tone for the remainder of the series IMO.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
cab,
I wouldn’t discount Pieterse playing in the RWC. JW dd say that he was using the tour to check a few outside options but wanted some experience in the team as well.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
I think the Boks wll get pumped on Saturday.
But the England games are there to won for perhaps the last time in this generation. The boks should be planning now on how to bounce back from defeat.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Shields
November 7th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Yip I would not rule out Pieterse either. Ackerman can be replaced but its well known that the latter player is a very good scrummer hence BJ looking so good. They too are a combination. I guess White could weigh up combining the said positions or go with FS Locks who scrum well with FS props?
November 7th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Cab
Agree with you.
IMO, a loss this weekend will mean 4 losses on this tour
November 7th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Right lads and StM,
I’m outta here for the day.
See you tomorrow
November 7th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Cheers Ollie
November 7th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Viva the uneducated masses Viva!
Down with Shields and Ollie Down!
Ras
In case you forgot you’re our official reporter on the scene and will also be viewing the two Twickenham games from the press box.
I sincerely hope Ras runs into Stephen Jones.
There are a few things I’d like Ras to pass on to Jones…
November 7th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
KSA
You been MIA for a while…
November 7th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Yeh I too have a small packcage for Jones. A nice ‘just-add-water’ PK to start off with.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
MIA?????
Seems more like KIA
I have been snowed under big time. My boss has resigned and left me in the lurch a little (actually a fucken lot) I am very close to saying. Fok Julle ek gaan huis toe…..
November 7th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Can I send something to ad to the package. We have some really spice food here and I am sure if i dried one of my “chocolate hostages” it would do really well when watered.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
when one reads their media and ppl like Stephen Jones, one realises just how lucky we are.
We have plenty idjits, but they dont have the kenners we do: Mallett, Rassie, Naas, Stansky (is becoming a minor kenner) and White.
KSA,
yes could be bad, but perhaps the hunger of the youngster’s will be a revelation.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
KSA you must abide by the east rand rules of how to quit your job: First you remove your shirt, throw it on the ground and then say: Fok julle ek gaan huistoe…”
November 7th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Yeah but in the MIDDLE EAST you get arrested for showing your belly button in public so I might have to pull my pant up as well
November 7th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
If I was from the East rand it would be a “Jean pant” but that was I typo I meant pantS
November 7th, 2006 at 6:02 pm
So I am not the wiser. Do anyone know where I can find out discussions by coaches on combinations? Do combinations change in rank? I cannot see the 12/13 combination being that important anymore? Do they rather pick a front row combination or do they select it as I explained? Why must a loose trio combine if they are always on the opposite side of the field?
Anyone from teh Zuma camp care to enlighten me?
November 7th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
Ja KSA dont forget the required : “Jou ma se e-pos”!
But yeh come home, your Sharkies need you.
November 7th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
My Sharks are gonne eat anything in there path come February :grrr:
November 7th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Hmmm
An East Rand tradition is also to threaten to moer all and sundry when you resign shirtless.
Your Jean pant must be pulled up high so your vet bier pens hangs over it and hides the belly button.
You can pull off your shirt and then say
Fok julle ek gaan huistoe… en as iemand my try stop kak hulle