In an effort to offer our readers a bit more, RuggaWorld.com has pulled in some of our resident experts like The Brand to offer our readers something different – we hope you like it.
For this week I assisted Brand in looking at the try Adam Ashley Cooper scored against the All Blacks last weekend. We hope that our other resident experts will come to the party and perhaps make this a weekly feature that we can run. If you want to give it a crack, simply let me know and we can discuss the details – who knows, the next brilliant analyst of the game might just be lurking somewhere on this site.
Obviously my part will cover the more straight forward analysis of the try while Brand will do what he does best and analyse the mental aspect or in-the-moment thought processes of the different players.
If you guys like this, we will make this a weekly feature so let us know.
I have 8 clips that I would like to show you guys and the reason why I believe the Australians managed to score this try. The interesting thing about this whole try is that the actual try was scored due to rank bad defense, but the really interesting part of this try is the build-up to it.
In two recent articles of mine I tackled two issues, firstly the ruck and secondly the ability of players to run themselves into space or, for people supporting them to give the ball carrier options and run themselves into space.
Now this try illustrates what I meant perfectly.
In clip 1 we will see Bernie receiving the ball from a ruck. Now I know the image is not that flash but Bernie is the yellow guy with a red circle around him…
I have also marked the two primary All Black defenders in red as you will see – but the thing I want to show you guys is the runners around Bernie and the options they give him.
The All Black defensive line is pretty standard in this clip, but Bernie’s running angle, together with the options he is given by other runners enables them to open up this All Black defense like a can of tuna.
Bernie’s running angle is going across the field, but if you look at the clip he has two players (directly behind him in blue) and a whole pod of players (in orange) a bit further to the right.
Now Bernie does break the line between Collins and replacement scrumhalf Weepu through his lateral running and also because defenders are watching people running on angles off him, but his break is actually just a half break – but that’s all you need at this level.
In clip 2 you will see that one of the All Black has already been taken out of the game defensively because of Bernie’s half-break, but yet again just look at the options he has in players around him! You can also see that all the defenders now have their eyes fixed on him too since he got through, and therefore no-one has really seen Lote coming in at a brilliant angle and at speed from the blind side of most defenders.
From this clip it almost seems inevitable that Bernie will pass to one of the players on his inside and the defenders seem to have this covered quite well, but then enters Lote at great pace giving Bernie options yet again to his left or right or inside or outside to pass to.
In clip 3 and 4 you will see Lote come in at a brilliant angle wrong footing the three All Black defenders who followed Bernie and also leaving one defender for dead that was fooled by Bernie’s run. In the sequence Lote cuts back to where his supporting players are as you see it in the clip and Weepu falls off yet another tackle missing Lote with only the replacement prop left to try and make that tackle on a speedster.
Lote ended up 8 or so meters in the All Black 22 with 4 players close in support when he was tackled and the whole All Black team retreating to cover and form a defensive line again.
Clip 5 is the ruck just before the try. Now what is interesting here is that the All Blacks had time to fall back and form a defensive line as you can see indicated in blue. In fact, the All Blacks had a 5 on 4 situation defensively with Rico Gear not shown in this specific clip right out at the near touch line.
Clip 5 shows yet again the option the runners gives the ball carrier, with the player marked in red the one receiving the ball. He has an option to play inside him or go wide, on this occasion he went wide.
This try or move too was marked by some lateral running by Sharpe on this occasion but the important thing, as with Lote, is that the receivers came in at angles of him or ran straight. Sharpe decided to go for a skip pass here which was genius, because as you can see from clip 6 that two All Black defenders were committed to the skipped player freeing up Ashley Cooper a bit 5 meters out.
Now what follows after this is just rank bad defense. Firstly Rico Gear misses a simple one-on-one in international terms and then McCaw also uses a really bad tackling technique to try and bring the man down.
Credit to Ashley Cooper though, his body position here was brilliant and he had great leg drive.
In the end 3 tackler missed this guy (Chris Jack too) 5 meters out from their own goal line.
In that respect this should never have been a try – but the build-up to this was brilliant and illustrates exactly why people need to straighten the line first off, but also how it is vitally important for runners to put themselves, or run themselves into position to give the ball carrier multiple options – also at just about every ruck the Australians managed to cross the advantage line – vital if you are looking to keep momentum through 6 phases.
To see how this should never be done, simply look at how Butch was never given an option against the All Blacks in Durban by runners and also have a look at how flat we are and how lateral every single player runs.
Well thats me done, let’s look at The Brand’s take on things…
I will aim to provide a ‘look-in’ into the players ‘States’ – and with ‘States’ read their ‘thinking and feeling’ at specific moments. Why am I and you able to do that? Because everything we say and do is just a reflection of what we are thinking and feeling. And this is what we are going to use – in reverse – given the players actions.
I will start with Aus.
Sharpe, the No. 6 flank and Cooper knew what was going to happen before they received the ball.
Why do I say that? Look at the actions of No 6 – he make as if to catch – but knows the ball is meant to be skipped. Cooper knew to expect the ball.
Cooper decided he is going to score – he is not ‘trying’ to score – he is going to score.
He looks at Gear – jumps to Gear’s left side – looks at McCaw – ducks under his tackle – looks at Jack – ducks under his tackle and jumps to the try-line.
Now lets look at NZ
No. 16 is drawn by Sharpe.
Jack is fooled by Aus No. 6.
Gear thinks he got his man – he is sooo sure he will get his man – he is ‘overconfident’.
McCaw believes Gear will make tackle he is too late for tackle.
Jack believes McCaw will make tackle he is too late for his tackle.
Neither McCaw or Jack believed that Cooper will score – both thought he was ‘covered’ by the previous tackler.
Their ‘underestimation’ of Cooper led to the try.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Sorry gents,
This was meant to go up earlier but both myself and Brand had some line problems.
The full clip can be viewed at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAAgnegKcE
July 6th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Thanks guys – very interesting piece – and I hope this type of thing can be a regular; Murph’s articles too.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
It’s not clear on the clip but it does seem as if Gear “rushed” A A-C. I mean rushed in every sense since he came up so fast that he didn’t size up the tackle properly.
So it seems that he spotted the skip pass early on but was too quick and too eager to nail A A-C. Got his timing wrong so A A-C was able to cut inside.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
The All Black defensive line is pretty standard in this clip
It is not
In Clip 1 we can clearly see that the All Blacks defence is caught out
You see this by the broken arrow formed at the wing.
The All Blacks as a rule in this game tried to play a rush style defence copying us. This meant that the anchor man would have been the wing.
BUT two defenders out wide are lagging, thus giving Larkham just that extra space to try and ustilise his runners.
also at just about every ruck the Australians managed to cross the advantage line –
Not true
A stat flashed on tv right after the game showed the All Blacks had a 30% advantage crossing the gainline.
They crossed it 82% of the time compared to the only 52% of the Australians
PA
I raised this stat on Monday hoping you would try and explain it in terms of the gainline battle you and Phillipdc advocated last week.
This stat would appear to create an impression that you were wrong.
Care to comment?
Gear thinks he got his man – he is sooo sure he will get his man – he is ‘overconfident’.
I am intersted Brand, and in a non facetious way, how you are able to read the state of mind of the player?
July 6th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
This is a common problem in rugby of chasing up, but it’s more frequent in following kicks.
Players are too eager to reach their opponent without thinking about positioning themselves properly when they get there. How often do you see a fullback, flyhalf or wing field a kick with a defender breathing down his neck, and with a simple sidestep or even just a sway of the hips, send the defender sprawling.
Players actually need to slow down just before reaching the player fielding the kick. Alternatively, they should chase in depth – one player chases hard, the second backs off slightly to prevent the sidestep.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Davids,
The mention of crossing the gain line in was relevant to this specific move, not the whole game.
Also consider that this ruck was formed after a NZ kick from their own 22 area, and I did not think for one second during the match NZ tried to rush as the Boks did in 2004. they do rush the inside quarter being up on Bernie and Gitt’s very quickly but their wings never once played the role our wings do in a rush defense.
For me it was a rush and drift tactic they used with their loosies covering the second line of defense almost throughout the whole game.
Looking at how the Aus backline is set up and how far the wide pod was to Bernie, one would have expected him to go back inside to the 3 or 4 players he had there thus Rokocoko hanging back for a possible kick.
This all really came from Weepu missing Bernie and Lote (poor defense) which opened them up.
You will see in this clip if you watch the whole one that they (NZ) did not really rush up here but drifted on Bernie which was their mistake in my view.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Gear thinks he got his man – he is sooo sure he will get his man – he is ‘overconfident’.
I am intersted Brand, and in a non facetious way, how you are able to read the state of mind of the player?
Comment by DavidS — July 6, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
Me too Dawie, me too. And what is the difference between that and A A-C’s confidence? If indeed Gear was confident at all.
My own view is that he gambled when he spotted the skip pass, broke the defensive line and rushed his man, with the result that his tackle positioning was poor.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Comment by il postino — July 6, 2007 @ 2:36 pm
Its been said before that the key is to run like hell to get there, and slow up as you do. Of course having 1 or more chaser is always the ultimate.
PA, I am also interested in the question David raises, as I noted the same stat.
The importance of support running is unquestionable though – its one of the things that marks Jacobs out in my opinion.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Oh and I missed the stat you raised on Monday – did not see it but would comment if you care to paste it again.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
You will see in this clip if you watch the whole one that they (NZ) did not really rush up here but drifted on Bernie which was their mistake in my view.
Comment by PissAnt — July 6, 2007 @ 2:39 pm |Edit This
This is the point I am making
Their execution of the rush was poor, with the result that they actually gave Australia the opportunity to attack through Larkham instead of turning him inwards the way a rush would
Rokocoko seems almost uncertain of himself
July 6th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Just watched the clip again. I was wrong – Gear doesn’t break his line at all. But his body positioning and timing is all wrong.
I doubt whether you can read his state of mind though. It could be that the skip pass DID catch him by surprise and he wasn’t ready for the tackle.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
IP, I dont think that Gear’s tackling positioning was poor due to rushing up – he had sufficient time to still make the tackle, and did in fact do so, but he almost tackled to low, and slipped of his ankles.
More due to a badly executed tackle than anything else – he should have stopped him.
July 6th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Playing with a man off the field does not exactly help. The Wobblies, AB’s and Boks are quite closely matched this year.
The difference between winning and losing the game and those mini stages is v close. Having a player less gives the other side in this contest an overwhelming advantage.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Hmmm
Looking at the clip I have to go along with Postie
Gear read the situation
He knew Cooper was getting the ball and played a classic rush
It almost worked
I think he took a gamble that even if he couldn’t take the tackle, he had cover coming across because the skip took attacking players out.
The problem is that he arrives a fraction too late, Cooper spots him and as he goes for the tackle, with Cooper aiming outside the split second extra gives Cooper the chance to twist his hips inwards and go inside him.
I actually don’t think Gear looked all over confident
He had reason to take the risk
He is a fantastic tackler
He read the play
he pulled his weight on the rush
He was just a fraction too slow in the rush allowing Cooper to twist inside
McCaw and Jack
Simply terrible technique
McCaw goes too high
Cooper ducks and keeps his legs far apart and as the commentators point out – great leg pump.
Superb technique
I also think that instead of deciding to score the try, his aims were not just to beat the defenders
I think the try came about not because he decided to score, but because the All Blacks defenders allowed him the chance
His first obvious thought is let me bear Gear which he does, but you see if he decided to score the try his likeliest first option would be to try beat Gear outside. Gear is bigger than him.
Then he actually looks at McCaw and makes a concerted effort to keep his legs wide, he slows down – not a usual thing for a wing to do, pushes McCaw off and ducks under the tackle, and I think it’s only at that point that he decides to go for the line with the dive.
In fact as many rugby players will tell you look at the eyes
He gets the ball and his first looks are at Gear and getting past him, then he looks at the cross defenders
Only after McCaw goes over the top of him does he actually look at the line
July 6th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Comment by PissAnt — July 6, 2007 @ 2:43 pm |Edit This
PA
I said in the post much what I said earlier
I have never seen a gainline battle stat before
BUT after the game the Australian tv flashed a stat that showed that
New Zealand crossed the advanatage line 82% of the time they attacked and Australia managed only a 52% ratio of crossing the advantage line on atack
Now I’m not sure if they’re the same but to me it would appear that the stat would also say that defensively, Australia stopped New Zealand crossing the gainline on only 28% of attempts while Australia got stopped 48% of the time on attack
The stat would appear to say that New Zealand should have run away with this match
Based on the gainline analysis theory you and phillipdc advanced last week
But this does not appear to have happened
July 6th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
DaivdS and Posti
Everything, and I mean everything, you say and do is the result of your ‘States’ = Your Thinking and Feeling.
There is not a word you – say – that is not the end result of what you thought.
There is nothing that you – do – that is not the end result of what you thought.
Everything we can observe another person is doing or that we can hear another person is saying – is the end result of their thinking.
Therefore when I look at a clip like this – I see Gear missing the tackle and I think – what did he think to get it right (to miss the tackle) ? Because he can only do – as the end result of what he was thinking. So how did he think – to enable him to miss the tackle ???
Then I ‘put’ myself in his ‘place’ and run possible thinking strategies.
Often I recognize one that ‘fits’.
Know what to look for and how to relate that to ‘possible’ thinking strategies obviously helps a lot.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
PA
This is even more brilliant than what I thought possible – well done.
Whaooo I am blown away.
Great stuff
Sorry for ‘joining’ only now – got busy.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Now it is obvious – that if you do not believe that EVERYTHING you say and do – you behaviour – is the end result of your thinking and feeling, you will not believe what I say.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Great piece. Congrats PA and Brand.
Brand, we still need to discuss the other arti. Just got a bit busy this week.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Not doubting a thing you say, TB, just this: how can you tell that THAT was his particular state of mind at that very moment? You can’t, unless it’s utterly obvious, and even then there’s a risk you can be wrong.(I’m talking generally here, not targeting this situation)
Please take us through the specifics that lead you to the conclusion that Gear was overconfident. What are the little tell-tale signs?
July 6th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Davids,
We only looked at this clip specifically and here they definately did not rush, or even attempted to – maybe because Gitt’s wasnt playing 12 anymore?
They were out and out drifting.
The stat issue is interesting but I did not study this game as I did the All Blacks. There is a little process I use to study gain-line breaks.
But if you consider that Mortlock only really broke the line two times I would suppose that stat could be correct.
What I do find interesting though is Aus tackling NZ behind the gain-line – seeing Aus rushed us at Newlands.
But then the AB’s did make a hell of a lot of unforced errors.
I am in no way disputing the stat but consider that Mortlock’s two breaks resulted in 14 points (or was it 12) both ending in tries.
Remember my whole thing is two-fold, losing the contest of the tackle area or gain-line battle but also players not giving the runners that actually breaks the line any options or running off him – I said as much in my article.
This is what the Ozzies did damn well in this specific try and I suppose the last one too. They did not always cross the AB’s gain-line but in the occassions they did, they got points.
As another example, if Schalk breaks the line and crosses the advantage line but the pass goes astray or the ball is turned over in the tackle resulting from it, I do not give it as a point to the Boks in winning the gain-line battle, the lost that. And for every point the one team loses the other one gains.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
What are the little tell-tale signs?
Comment by il postino — July 6, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
(Self moderation applied)
July 6th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
PA
To back up your point, in the middle phases of that clip you see Larkham and Giteau both making ambitious passes under pressure, and succeeding.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
TB, I do agree that all words and actions begin in the mind, and I think everybody at least subconsciously accepts that, but I must disagree with how far you take it.
“Therefore when I look at a clip like this – I see Gear missing the tackle and I think – what did he think to get it right (to miss the tackle) ? Because he can only do – as the end result of what he was thinking. So how did he think – to enable him to miss the tackle ???”
Our actions are partly due to our thoughts/ desires/ instincts/ feelings call it what you will, but that is not all.
One has to factor in extraneous factors – Ashley-Cooper’s own determination, the influence of fatigue, the game plan, a stud catching in the grass, etc.
These also have an effect, and nothing in Gear’s mindset or attitude can effect them – in many ways its his determination versus that op Ashley-Cooper, his own fatigue, pressure, etc.
Personally, I would submit that its an extreme form of existentialism and determinism to say that one’s mind state alone determines everything that occurs in such a situation.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Clip 5 actually shows that Aus took the wrong option and were lucky to score through poor tackling. Look how many players were available on the outside of the ruck to the right. Certain try.All it would take was direct running.
The smartest try scored lately was the bulls v reds game where all the bulls huddled by the ruck pretending to prepare to drive again when a skip pass was thrown to Spies standing outside the “group” and went through unmarked. The bokke should try that one.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Personally, I would submit that its an extreme form of existentialism and determinism to say that one’s mind state alone determines everything that occurs in such a situation.
Comment by Big Fish — July 6, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
Very eloquently put.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Not sure about anyone’s states of mind in that try but it was a brilliant example of team and individual excellence.
First you had A-AC cutting in, tackled, not losing the ball.
Then Bernie going lateral [with the others running brilliantly off the ball as PA highlighted] into traffic yet retaining the vision to know that Lote was cutting in on him and making the vital pass.
Then you’ve got Lote having the vision and strength to cut in and make huge ground.
Then you get an example of Giteau’s vision when he arrives at the ruck, realises the AB’s are going to counter-ruck and instead of hanging around, he gets stuck right in, enabling the Aussies to retain possession [many SA scrummies would have stood there waiting for their forwards and watched the AB's either force the penalty or counter-ruck the 2 existing players off the ball.]
Then you’ve got the Sharpe vision to not take it up himself, not pass to the next guy but to actually do the skip pass wide.
Then you’ve got the utter determination and leg thrust from A A-C to make it past three experienced All Blacks.
Great stuff. Wonderful try and deserved to be on the side of the match winners.
Number of little cameos and vignettes to savour.
An individual try created through team excellence throughout.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Notice Lote going hunting for a loosie on his cutback, he draws Soialo and Collins into the tackle.The followups have Oz forwards barging on Kiwi backs, the AB’s are scrambling in defence now.
The pick and drive in the crucial follow up rucks prior to the drive, if you look, they are clearly aiming at Soialo and McCaw, Rodders is involved in 2 tackles, and McCaw does quite well to evade involvement twice, he is almost drawn in on the second movement which is when the pass out happens.
Collins goes open McCaw does blind, the blind side is stacked with 3 forwards and a wing, creating the perfect opportunity to attack.
They were very lucky in the end there, though I don’t doubt they would have scored, but that skip pass almost cost them. What are the chances of a wing breaking through 3 tackles, one from McCaw who generally turns those opportunities into turnovers?
Cooper’s try was a magnificent effort, breaking through 3 to score, what are the chances of that happening against the AB’s?
July 6th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
BF,
I have never words used like that on a blog
Dawie just one last point – I know you had the card system when you went to watch some games in the past.
Did you ever compare your stats to those flashed on TV?
When I got paid to do this (good old days) our stats almost always did not correspond with that shown on TV.
I’d hate to discredit another guys’ stats because we do the same thing but coaches I worked with never trusted them – they are done very quickly in the spur of the moment type thing.
Even if I just analyze a game for fun these days it takes me no less than 4 hours. And that is not even covering everything.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
But Brand surely we can’t say that Rico Gear’s thought processes are saying to him
“I’m going to miss this tackle”?
This does prove that McCaw R (Isaac Asimov anyone?) does have a glitch and his programmers will have to work hard on sorting out his software before the next match…
I think he was thinking along the lines of:
“Here goes Rico. I’m going to be forst to the tackle ball, I’m going to get the TO. OH SHIT! he missed!”
The tackle was more instinctive and with his weight going sideways and arms not properly positioned
Kind of like his momentum carried him
July 6th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
DK,
You raised a crucial point in nullifying the AB’s on attack, and that is to target their loosies and tie them up in rucks.
Their second line of defense almost solely depends on these guys.
Even see Collins shooting way back in defense (away from the Bernie situation or groupie where he off-loaded) but notice in clip 2 how close he actually was to Bernie.
It is also interesting the Ozzies attacked the 3rd and 4th channels of the AB’s almost exclusively.
With Jaque in top form in our team I really think the AB’s perceived strength (13, wings and fullback) are actually their greatest weakness.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
BF,
I have never words used like that on a blog
Comment by PissAnt — July 6, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
I’m so lost here!
PA, which Jacques are you referring too, and please expand on how he transforms the OZ strengths into weaknesses.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Targetted running, the gain line is secondary, once you’re in scramble defence the secret is to take out the key backup. You tie up their sweepers and make sure you’re running at the fatties.
The gain line is not the holy grail of rugby.
Sharp’s skip pass would have been habana/de villiers food, it was madness, it just happened to work for them. Look how close that pass was to being intercepted.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Our Jaque, in a similar situation where we attacke the outside 4 of the All Blacks.
They are almost exclusively seen as the best in the world, I dont think they are, I actually think they are lazy.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Well done Adam Ashley Cooper
ADVANCE AUSTRALIA FAIR
Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil;
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history’s page, let every stage
Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.
Beneath our radiant Southern Cross
We’ll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who’ve come across the seas
We’ve boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Comment by PissAnt — July 6, 2007 @ 3:57 pm
I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are referring to Fourie and not Cronje (heaven forbid!).
July 6th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
I really hope TB a) comes back and posts a reply that b) actually answers my question rather than posts another lot of questions!
July 6th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Australians we must all agree
They just can’t play rugby
They’ve huge league stadiums
For cricket and Rules
Their land abounds in
sportsman’s gifts
In swimming and footy
In history’s page
we all agree
They just can’t play rugby
Beneath the radiant Southern Cross
They toil with hearts and hands
To make their team
Renowned of all the lands
For Saffas coming cross the sea
They’ve boundless dosh to share
With courage let them combine
To try and play rugby
But admit in sorrow
They just can’t play rugby
July 6th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Comment by DavidS — July 6, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
You asking for a serious PK posting that the day before the Test.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
I take that back – this verse I like!
July 6th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
PA
Sorry for ‘bailing’ on thread.
Am back for a while – will do best to catch-up.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Comment by il postino — July 6, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
“Therefore when I look at a clip like this – I see Gear missing the tackle and I think – what did he think to get it right (to miss the tackle) ? Because he can only do – as the end result of what he was thinking. So how did he think – to enable him to miss the tackle ???
Then I ‘put’ myself in his ‘place’ and run possible thinking strategies.
Often I recognize one that ‘fits’.
Know what to look for and how to relate that to ‘possible’ thinking strategies obviously helps a lot.
Comment by The Brand© — July 6, 2007 @ 3:13 pm ”
Keyword here – POSSIBLE thinking strategies.
In a perfect world Gear would have been with us during the video analysis and we would have asked him.
Now I can tell you that 99.9% of players in my experience are NOT ABLE to tell you what they thought at that moment. They usually answer something vague, along the line of “Hmmm I don’t know – I just tried to tackle him . . . .”
Without Gear I do the following.
1. I study the behaviour in this case Gear’s actions in as much detail as needed then
2. I see if I can ‘link’ / ‘fit’ his actions to a ‘kind’ of thinking strategy. Often (definitely in the beginning) I had to do this over and over many many times – in order to find a ‘fit’ that make enough ‘sense’.
Hope that is enough to get you more curious ???
July 6th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Comment by DavidS — July 6, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
Now sing all that with a peg on your nose
July 6th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
An opinion from the “States”.
Gear’s state of mind is not relevant. Your state cannot suspend the laws of physics and he was simply beaten.
McCaw’s over-all game was below par for him. He is probably thinking about holding the webb-ellis trothy in a few months.
Jack realised too late that he needs to make a tackle.
Lastly I am absolutely not qualified to do any of this.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Personally, I would submit that its an extreme form of existentialism and determinism to say e’s mind state alone determines everything that occurs in such a situation.
Comment by Big Fish — July 6, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
There are many many factors that affect the end result – I am focusing on one aspect – how did the players ‘Thinking and Feeling’ affect the result they got ???
What part did their ‘thinking and feeling’ have in what happened ???
And then – to what extend can we get players to take more control of their ‘thinking and feeling’ during a game.
And what role does a player’s individually and a team’s collective ‘thinking and feeling patterns’ have in the game ???
And lastly just aside what are the meanings of “existentialism and determinism” ???
Can they both be used to describe the same concept???
Seeing that you ‘seems to say’ it is the same kind of thing its an extreme form (singular) of existentialism and determinism to say that one’s mind state alone determines everything that occurs in such a situation.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
PA lost long reply to Posti – can you help ???
July 6th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
POSTIE:
“How often do you see a fullback, flyhalf or wing field a kick with a defender breathing down his neck, and with a simple sidestep or even just a sway of the hips, send the defender sprawling.”
===================
This is honestly one of my prime worries:
We see all and sundry sidestepping our
rushing players – our guys don’t seem to grasp
the slowing and positioning concept.
Add to this that I never ever see any of
our players applying the sway of the hips:
they never take on the guy rushing up in
defence and invariably kick, even under
great pressure (and often fluff the kick.)
July 6th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
DavidS
“I think he was thinking along the lines of:
“Here goes Rico. I’m going to be forst to the tackle ball, I’m going to get the TO. OH SHIT! he missed!�
The tackle was more instinctive and with his weight going sideways and arms not properly positioned
Kind of like his momentum carried him
Comment by DavidS — July 6, 2007 @ 3:49 pm ”
You see it is not only me that does it.
DavidS that is what I also think was going on in his ‘mind’.
I also think he was ‘sure’ Rico will make the tackle – therefore did not ‘run’ alternative options through his mind in order to be prepared foe – ‘what if not’.
Same with Jack.
See it nothing – just plain logical deductions!!!
July 6th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Friday nights are meant for Woolies TV dinners, beer and banter.
This sure is heavy stuff for us “average Joe’s” to understand this late in the week.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Boertjie
Hip swaying = Ruan Pienaar
July 6th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Fyndraai
In what ‘State of Mind’ were you when you wrote this ???
No, really what were your ‘state’ ??
“An opinion from the “Statesâ€?.
Gear’s state of mind is not relevant. Your state cannot suspend the laws of physics and he was simply beaten.”
Comment by fyndraai — July 6, 2007 @ 4:39 pm ”
Have a look again at the video-clip from seconds 1:22 to 1:25 and 1:37 to 1:39 and then 1:49 to
July 6th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Welshie
Jip, but when last did you see
a 15 or someone fielding a high
ball do it?
July 6th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Fyndraai
In what ‘State of Mind’ were you when you wrote this ???
No, really what were your ‘state’ ??
“An opinion from the “Statesâ€?.
Gear’s state of mind is not relevant. Your state cannot suspend the laws of physics and he was simply beaten.”
Comment by fyndraai — July 6, 2007 @ 4:39 pm ”
Have a look again at the video-clip from seconds 1:22 to 1:25 and 1:37 to 1:39 and then 1:49 to 1:51
And then ask yourself the following question:
“What was Gear thinking?” or “What was going through Gear’s mind?”
I am interested in your answers – I really am !!!
July 6th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Comment by Boertjie — July 6, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
I wish that our guys could watch videos of Ronaldhino – the way he uses his hips to completely bamboozle defenders. Maybe it has something to do with salsa, which involves a liberal use of the hips?
“There is nothing that you – do – that is not the end result of what you thought.”
Thats what I’m referring to Brand. I fully agree that our mental state immeasurably effects every facet of our life, but I don’t believe that it is the only, or often, even the decisive factor. To say that someone failed at something because they thought incorrectly, had the wrong attitude or made some other such mistake, is to me, to ignore a myriad of other factors, and place too much emphasis on that person’s ability to shape their own life or destiny (in that sense existentialist).
Furthermore, the idea that a particular factor, or even series of factors, makes a particular effect or conclusion inevitable also smacks of determinism.
Hence, I am merely saying that your analogy assumes firstly, that his personal train of events is the primary decider of the eventual outcome (existentialist), and that one can extract that factor, and know the eventual outcome (deterministic). So yes, in my opinion, they can refer to the same concept.
Of course, as i said, its how it seems to me, and I am not looking to take a shot at you – I just don’t agree.
July 6th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Posti
Look at the video-clip from seconds 1:22 to 1:25 and 1:37 to 1:39 and then 1:49 to 1:51.
What do you see Gear doing?
Did he ‘rush’?
Did he ‘wait’?
What kind of tackle did he chose to do?
“How did he execute this chosen tackle?”
“How specifically?”
“Where was his feet?”
“Where was his arms – left and right?”
And then very very importantly –
“Where was his head the whole time?”
or should that rather be
“What did he do with his head?”
“What did he do with his head – specifically?”
Is that – “the little tell-tale signs?” – enough ???
July 6th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
I am still looking for that ‘missing’ post for Posti – anyone ???????????
July 6th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
“This does prove that McCaw R (Isaac Asimov anyone?) does have a glitch and his programmers will have to work hard on sorting out his software before the next match…”
I asked PA to do spell checking for me on the names – I was having one of ‘those’ moments – zero spelling made sense to me.
Ha ha ha – maybe I should go for ‘re-programming’ DavidS .
July 6th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Comment by Big Fish — July 6, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
Very well said – makes much more ‘sense’ to me now as well.
The view I am presenting here is as follows.
hardly ever – if ever do Sportsmen put in the hard yards to ‘manage’ their ‘States of Mind’.
The sooner a player realises the immense effect their ‘States of Mind’ have on the results they achieve the sooner he can play to his ‘full’ potential.
At this stage it is my experience that most players and coaches ‘totally’ ignore this aspect of the game.
or
They believe that the psyching-up they do before a game is what it is all about.
You can psych a player or team up as much as you like it ‘normally’ last 10 to 15 minutes.
If a player don’t know how to manage his ‘States of Mind’ – then all the external factors you mentioned and many more plays a far bigger role in the outcome than what should be accredited to them.
In the end of the day it is a ‘Mind-Game’ but unfortunately very few coaches and player realise that !!!
So therefore I enjoy – putting the ‘light’ on the players ‘minds’ and the effect it had on the game, also in this forum at RW.
July 6th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
If we then look at McCaw
(thanks DavidS)
He – as DavidS so beautifully described miss-tackled because he ‘ran’ the ‘wrong program’ for the specific context.
Could he have run two or more programs at the same time ???
Maybe?
What would have been the – maybe – result if he had the following ‘State of Mind’/'program’ for the specific context?
A. “look Gear is going to make the tackle – he did not ‘rush’ Cooper – he is waiting for him nicely – there he goes for the hit – and I am going to be the first player at the breakdown – I must come in through the gates and win the ball for us – shit if they get another fast ball here 5 m from the try-line we are in even deeper shit – I have to hurry-up and get to the tackle as fast a possible” “Fooooook what happened???” “O shit he is past Gear taaaacccckkkklllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee him . . . . I’m sllliiiiiiipppppping . . . aaaarggggghhhh . . . . huh . . . . . . what happened ????”
B. “Gear is going for tackle – when made I must be first at breakdown – if missed I must hit Cooper out of field – get ready for both options my man . . . . Aha Gear missed him!!! – Cooper has low body position get ‘under’ him and lift-hit him out of the field . . . ahaaaa yes that’s it . . . fewwwwwww that was close.” “Great that we brought in that ‘Mind-Coach’ he made all the difference – I think so much more effectively on the field now-a-days.”
July 6th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
OK I have caught up and hope everyone that participated enjoyed themselves.
Thanks for participating.
Thanks for asking great questions.
In the end I certainly hope to bring another enjoyable aspect to your rugby.
July 6th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Ha ha ha
PA I only now saw the ‘heading’ for article ha ha ha 
July 6th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Sorry I got caught up with Baba and bath time and things!
We are indeed couch experts are we not Brand???
July 6th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
PA
I enjoyed it thanks.
As long as you don’t call me a couch-potato!!!
That is reserved for my Wife
July 6th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Also it was really good to look and then look again and again at the same video-clip and realise how much you see when you look again.
I just wonder how some of our friends feel – after they said – this or that – happened and when they look again and again – they realised it never happened the way they thought it happened.
July 6th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Then again it happens to me a lot as well – I just now look again several times – just in case !!!!
July 6th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
TB
I have no idea if you will read this, but here goes:
I can see how you use a particular technique in the way you coach people, when you are in front of them and looking them in the eye trying to get your point across or get them thinking and acting in the right way. There, the phrasing of numerous questions works well, because you are trying to get them to solve the issues themselves/engage them in an active way, etc.
It’s a great technique for coaching.
But I think it’s a lousy technique in blogging. We want to discuss things, share views. I don’t want to be coached on RW, I want your views on things, like I hope you want mine and other people’s views.
I specifically asked you to tell me what the signs were in Gear’s behaviour that got you to those conclusions about his state of mind. I also specifically asked you not to answer me with another array of questions.
You ignored both requests. Why, I don’t know, but I’m asking you please, if you do come back to this page, will you please revisit this and give me the answer.
No questions, no coaching, please.
July 6th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
TB,
The mind coaching aspect is very interesting, thanks for that.
Just a point, or a query, I think much of rugby at this level, between two of the best teams in the world, has phases of play that are simply instinctual.
For me, the Gear/A-AC cameo was just that. It required instantaneous decision making, call it instinct, and all actions and reactions were carried out on years of accumulated experience.
Put A-AC in that position again for 10 times and I doubt he’d score again.
I seriously don’t think any of the four players involved were thinking at all in those micro seconds, they were all reacting on instinct and accumulated experience.
I do believe you can coach sportsmen’s minds as to the mental approach they’ll take onto the field and where to draw strength and courage from when the chips are down.
I just think it’s stretching credibility to be able to micro-manage it down to instant, specific passages of play like the sequence above.
But then I echo one of Fyndraai’s sentiments above – I know nuttttttting!
July 6th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Next oke who volunteers to be the expert on the couch, is a brave man indeed.
July 6th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
TB enjoys being challenged, it gives him an opportunity to open our minds.
July 6th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
By the way, it was a very nice piece from the both of you. It’s great to actually see stills, with highlighted players and a breakdown of what happened when and by whom.
Certainly puts a new dimension on rewatching the clip on video.
Very enjoyable, quite similar to some analysis software Sky Sports use in their studio presentation.
July 6th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Very good read indeed, look forward too many more.
Guys you putting up a thread 4 the Sharks vs Province game?
July 6th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
I can put one up, CSB, but, unfortunately, we’re not getting it
July 6th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Ahhhh, Donner beat me to it!
July 6th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
Surely all this verbage could be summed up by saying the AB’s just played slack rugby and the OZ were able to take advantage of their slackness,
Patrick
(28 words all up)
July 6th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Patrick,
as saffas we like to talk a great deal of kak and then have a good argument about it afterwards.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Cab,
Yes I understand……in any case it’s far easier than mowing the lawns,
Patrick.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Ras
- – - – -
“I do believe you can coach sportsmen’s minds as to the mental approach they’ll take onto the field and where to draw strength and courage from when the chips are down.
I just think it’s stretching credibility to be able to micro-manage it down to instant, specific passages of play like the sequence above.”
- – - – - –
It is IMPOSSIBLE not to be in some “state of Mind” – we are always in state of mind – always.
BUT i say this again – this is not a once off session or a 1 month program.
At the very least it will take 3 + – months of working every day with the players for 2 – 3 hours daily to get them ‘able’ to manage their states at ‘individual’ and ‘collective levels’- at ‘macro level’.
At ‘micro-level’ I would want a 12 month full circle/ season – daily training and coaching sessions with the players individually and the team collectively.
It is not a quick fix – magic pill !!!
The variables are tooooo many for a once off session or even 3 to 6 month period at the ‘micro-level’.
Every player has to experience ‘enough’ different contexts – to apply and adjust and then manage his ‘micro’ ‘States of Mind’.
Using media applications the process can be accelerated somewhat. Like the session we had today – Individually and with the Team.
Getting – buy-in – is still the biggest challenge though.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Ras I will do my best – watch this space.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Ras
- – - – -
“I do believe you can coach sportsmen’s minds as to the mental approach they’ll take onto the field and where to draw strength and courage from when the chips are down.
I just think it’s stretching credibility to be able to micro-manage it down to instant, specific passages of play like the sequence above.”
- – - – - –
It is IMPOSSIBLE not to be in some “state of Mind” – we are always in state of mind – always.
BUT i say this again – this is not a once off session or a 1 month program.
At the very least it will take 3 + – months of working every day with the players for 2 – 3 hours daily to get them ‘able’ to manage their states at ‘individual’ and ‘collective levels’- at ‘macro level’.
At ‘micro-level’ I would want a 12 month full circle/ season – daily training and coaching sessions with the players individually and the team collectively.
It is not a quick fix – magic pill !!!
The variables are tooooo many for a once off session or even 3 to 6 month period at the ‘micro-level’.
Every player has to experience ‘enough’ different contexts – to apply and adjust and then manage his ‘micro’ ‘States of Mind’.
Using media applications the process can be accelerated somewhat. Like the session we had today – Individually and with the Team.
Getting – buy-in – mmmmmmm the real challenge.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Ras
I have allready tried to post this 3 times let’s see now
- – - – -
“I do believe you can coach sportsmen’s minds as to the mental approach they’ll take onto the field and where to draw strength and courage from when the chips are down.
I just think it’s stretching credibility to be able to micro-manage it down to instant, specific passages of play like the sequence above.”
- – - – - –
It is IMPOSSIBLE not to be in some “state of Mind” – we are always in state of mind – always.
BUT i say this again – this is not a once off session or a 1 month program.
At the very least it will take 3 + – months of working every day with the players for 2 – 3 hours daily to get them ‘able’ to manage their states at ‘individual’ and ‘collective levels’- at ‘macro level’.
At ‘micro-level’ I would want a 12 month full circle/ season – daily training and coaching sessions with the players individually and the team collectively.
It is not a quick fix – magic pill !!!
The variables are tooooo many for a once off session or even 3 to 6 month period at the ‘micro-level’.
Every player has to experience ‘enough’ different contexts – to apply and adjust and then manage his ‘micro’ ‘States of Mind’.
Using media applications the process can be accelerated somewhat. Like the session we had today – Individually and with the Team.
Getting – buy-in – mmmmmmm the real challenge.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
OK just lost three posts ?????????
July 6th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Ras
So llet try again
- – - – -
“I do believe you can coach sportsmen’s minds as to the mental approach they’ll take onto the field and where to draw strength and courage from when the chips are down.
I just think it’s stretching credibility to be able to micro-manage it down to instant, specific passages of play like the sequence above.”
- – - – - –
It is IMPOSSIBLE not to be in some “state of Mind” – we are always in state of mind – always.
BUT i say this again – this is not a once off session or a 1 month program.
At the very least it will take 3 + – months of working every day with the players for 2 – 3 hours daily to get them ‘able’ to manage their states at ‘individual’ and ‘collective levels’- at ‘macro level’.
At ‘micro-level’ I would want a 12 month full circle/ season – daily training and coaching sessions with the players individually and the team collectively.
It is not a quick fix – magic pill !!!
The variables are tooooo many for a once off session or even 3 to 6 month period at the ‘micro-level’.
Every player has to experience ‘enough’ different contexts – to apply and adjust and then manage his ‘micro’ ‘States of Mind’.
Using media applications the process can be accelerated somewhat. Like the session we had today – Individually and with the Team.
Getting – buy-in – mmmmmmm the real challenge.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
That is no4 I give up
July 6th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Brand
Skype????
Ek sal gou jou posts gaan soek
July 6th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Ras
- – - – -
“I do believe you can coach sportsmen’s minds as to the mental approach they’ll take onto the field and where to draw strength and courage from when the chips are down.
I just think it’s stretching credibility to be able to micro-manage it down to instant, specific passages of play like the sequence above.”
- – - – - –
It is IMPOSSIBLE not to be in some “state of Mind” – we are always in state of mind – always.
BUT i say this again – this is not a once off session or a 1 month program.
At the very least it will take 3 + – months of working every day with the players for 2 – 3 hours daily to get them ‘able’ to manage their states at ‘individual’ and ‘collective levels’- at ‘macro level’.
At ‘micro-level’ I would want a 12 month full circle/ season – daily training and coaching sessions with the players individually and the team collectively.
It is not a quick fix – magic pill !!!
The variables are tooooo many for a once off session or even 3 to 6 month period at the ‘micro-level’.
Every player has to experience ‘enough’ different contexts – to apply and adjust and then manage his ‘micro’ ‘States of Mind’.
Using media applications the process can be accelerated somewhat. Like the session we had today – Individually and with the Team.
Getting – buy-in – mmmmmmm the real challenge.
What can we do ????????????????????????
July 6th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Nice to read a thread on RW again, some great points made and some really interesting questions.
My R0.02 worth…
When I talk about the concept of States with clients I ask them to consider their children or when they were a child … Children instinctively know when to ask Dad or Mom for something, as they can judge their mood, and know when they will more likely receive a Yes rather than a No. So Mood/States can influence behavior, sometimes even lead behavior , but not always, and not in all situations. Sometimes you might be in a foul mood, and a good mate will make you laugh and you will break your mood, someone was able to influence your mood, and your behaviour changed.
On the sports field this is a very important aspect, can you manage your mood/states, or do you allow circumstance to manage it for you (as most of us do naturally) Better yet, if you know that some days you can (almost) do no wrong, isnt it better to arrive on match day with that mood/state, and even if there are circumstance beyond your control (BF’s studs, fatigue, match situation, etc), you are still bringing your best self into play.
For me personally, I prefer not to hazard what someones thoughts/feelings may be (even though it can be a useful and fun exercise), I prefer to ask how effective was the action, and if they action wasn’t effective (like A-AC’s try), is there any leverage point in the players thoughts/feelings/mood/state that could be utilized to ensure that if a similar situation presented itself, they would be more likely to be more effective.
July 6th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Ha ha ha
and then they all appear one after the other \
how does that work ???????????????????????
July 6th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
Patrick,
as saffas we like to talk a great deal of kak and then have a good argument about it afterwards.
Comment by cab — July 6, 2007 @ 9:07 pm |Edit This
Cab,
Yes I understand……in any case it’s far easier than mowing the lawns,
Patrick.
Comment by Patrick — July 6, 2007 @ 9:44 pm |Edit This
Patrick,
I’m sure you’ve bumped into enough Saffas in your time to know that ‘kak’ means ‘shyte’.
And Cab’s right!
July 6th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
TG
My book arrived today – going to be a cozy weekend
July 6th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Glad to hear it TB, looking forward to hearing your feedback and thoughts! I believe the book is in CNA and exclusive books, so am really pleased that has finally happened.
July 6th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
5 x times he he he
Sorry for that – that was just weird.
Donner or Ras you may ‘erase’ 4 of them please.
TG – but it does get the conversation going does it not – “For me personally, I prefer not to hazard what someones thoughts/feelings may be (even though it can be a useful and fun exercise)”
In real ‘life’ I would sit down with the player and re-run the scene – till he has internalized sufficient options, with corresponding experiences.
Then we will monitor his playing to see to what degree did he ‘internalize’ the work.
July 6th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
TG
“CNA and exclusive books” great stuff.
Tania just today asked me about the set-off points – I did not know – got mine through Kalahari.
July 6th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
TB
For sure, and I think thats where blogging can be a great way to engage people in a debate, and dare I say it, be controversial … But that probably doesn’t apply here
July 6th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
For those of you wondering what I am on about.
TG – wrote a book:
In the Zone – with South Africa’s Sport Heroes.
How to Achieve Top Performance in Sport and Life.
Scanning through it I am impressed.
Great model – for analysis and measurement of development of players mental abilities.
I will provide further feedback once I have read the book cover to cover.
July 6th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
TG
Only the other guys are – controversial.
You know me I never am !!!!!!!!!!
July 6th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
I can hear you laughing from here …
I am so looking forward to tomorrows game, but cant watch as in Training %$%$#$#, but I reckon we may surprise a few people
July 6th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Me too.
The players have RWC ‘points’ to score + they got written off by Aus as ‘second-class’ citizens.
I think we are in for a surprise.
Don’t want to say it but maybe ‘pass to my outside wing the lines-man’ will have to leave the field early and Julies can come on.
I would love to see Julies next to Murray.
The pack is great – I have little worries about them.
The backline is exciting enough – except Meisiekind.
July 7th, 2007 at 12:08 am
%$%$#$#
Comment by TG — July 6, 2007 @ 10:33 pm |Edit This
TG made a vloek word too!
July 7th, 2007 at 12:16 am
Coaching Athletes to Zone
In The Zone with South Africa’s sports heroes looks to answer the question, what are elite sportsmen and women doing when they are at their best? We use the Neuro-Semantic and NLP skills of modelling to unpack some of our top South Africa men and women athletes to provide the information to create several models, most notablly the Elite Athlete Development Model, which is described below.
To Order the book click on this link: http://www.kalahari.net/bk/product.asp?sku=30626164
July 7th, 2007 at 12:17 am
For a taste:
http://www.coachingunity.co.za/inthezone.htm
but get the book for the real thing:
http://www.kalahari.net/bk/product.asp?sku=30626164
July 7th, 2007 at 12:33 am
Trust you Ras
for both the swear-words
and
the informative links.
Thanks make us feel right at home.
July 7th, 2007 at 12:35 am
Ras did you see I replied to your comments.
5 X
And you don’t respond – it’s a travesty – ha ha ha ha ha ha
July 7th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
“Sharp’s skip pass would have been habana/de villiers food, it was madness, it just happened to work for them. Look how close that pass was to being intercepted.”