Ruggaworld member, although we should probably start calling him a Ruggaworld Columnist soon, TG has kindly given us his views on the mental aspect of the Springboks’ Rugby World Cup victory.
I have really enjoyed reading all the various theories and ideas around what happened at World Cup 2007 – some really interesting perspectives have been explored. For me there were a couple of pivotal ‘mental’ moments that may have been part of the ‘tipping point’ of success. However these moments were only meaningful because thoroughly prepared and talented players played their hearts out whilst being richly blessed with doses of good fortune.
Jake White’s first speech as Springbok coach to his players 4 years ago, wasn’t about the forthcoming Irish test match, but instead it was about winning the World Cup in 2007. He asked the players to look around, as many of them would be there, together in 4 years time to lift the coveted trophy. The players sat dumbfounded, thinking he was mad. Many of them were part of the squad that crashed out of the 2003 world cup in the Quarter Finals, one of the low lights of recent Springbok history. Nevertheless, the seed was planted, a seed that supported these players (9 of which started the match in the final) in coming to terms with the enormity of what they could achieve, and fortunately they had 4 years to get their head around the idea.
Jake White was the first Springbok coach to employ a full time Sports Psychologist for the Springboks in the form of Dr Henning Gericke. Having known, worked with, and learnt from Henning in the last few years, I have seldom met anyone who has finer distinctions and instincts around team dynamics, a critical component when moulding distinctly provincial players into a new national team.
Dr Sherylle Calder joined the team in 2005, spending long hours with the players supporting their visual skills development. One of the secondary gains of her work is the complimentary mental development required to successfully go through her intense development programmes. Whilst developing their visual skills, the Boks got mentally tougher, and this combination with Dr Gericke meant that there was an ample opportunity to develop the type of world class resilience required to play and perform in our politically dominated and often very amateur game.
Springbok players and management have faced some of the toughest challenges in world rugby, with many of them being of our own (South Africa’s) making. Politicians threatening to withhold passports before the World Cup, administrators overruling the coach on selection of players, administrators recalling the coach home in mid-tour to give him a performance review, concerted media campaigns to fire the coach and chastising the team, record losses (49-0 to Australia for instance), the team going without a Manager for most of a season, Jake White publicly sharing his discussions with another rugby playing nation about coaching their team in the middle of his Springbok contract. To name but a few, not to mention the incredibly important, yet contentious subject of transformation in rugby. The team and the coach have been regularly derided for not being representative enough, and when you look at the facts transformation in rugby has not been successful, yet – however these pressures don’t support winning a rugby world cup.
In 2006 national opinion of Jake White was at an all time low, scribes, fans and the public who are so loudly cheering now were baying for his blood. Credit to him and his team that they stuck to their guns, and rode out the storm. The Springboks developed a level of “mental toughness� from the adversity they had to endure, and having a vision painted so clearly about 2007 by their coach, meant they had an aspirational goal to focus on.
Graham Henry decided to withdraw his All Blacks from the majority of the 2007 Super 14 tournament and the number of South African victories away from home rose dramatically, many of those games that were won and lost in the last moments, were now won by South African teams. South Africans learnt to win away from home and in big games, often through the bounce of the ball, or an important moment in the match, but they still won. No game is a more dramatic example of this then the Sharks vs Crusaders game in Durban. The defining moment was a 50 metre dash to score a glorious try after the final hooter had sounded (to end the game) by a Sharks player who had dropped the ball over the try line minutes before, squandering a certain try. The Try was followed by a successful kick from the corner, by a player who happened to be practising pressure kicks the week before as a game with some of his team mates. It was his first kick of the match, in the final minute, to win the game. These ‘fortuitous’ circumstances based on (physical and mental) skill and some luck meant the Sharks won by 1 point, and was a contributing factor to the first ever home Super 14 final in South Africa. Two South African teams (Sharks and the Bulls) played each other on that day and for the first time in over 10 years a South African team won the Super 14. 9 of those players who played in that final started the World Cup final on October 20. Two games before the final the Bulls started a game in the toughest provincial rugby tournament in the world requiring a winning margin of 72 points to secure a home semi-final and ended up winning 92-3. Throughout the year what South Africans previously thought was impossible was disputed and then disproved and ultimately shattered.
In the final weeks before the World Cup, first Rassie Erasmus for a brief period, and then Eddie Jones arrived as the latest of several specialists called in to support the squad. Having Eddie Jones there from a mental perspective was very important, for the first time Jake had someone he considered a peer as his council, rather than trusted and talented support. This took a lot of pressure off Jake, as well as providing an important foil to some of Jakes restless energy. As a combination, there was a measured, calm and practical approach to the final stages of executing Jake’s World Cup plan. The lasting image of Jake during the world cup was a man who visibly looked a lot calmer and at ease, more so than for most of his Springbok coaching career.
As always comments and disagreements most welcome
You can find out more about TG at Coaching Unity
October 25th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Brilliant piece as always, TGBok. Thanks again
October 25th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
I keep on reading all over the show as this article suggests too that Jake introduced a lot of firsts.
I found John Robbie’s comments interesting before the final where he tipped South Africa saying that Jake coached these guys to win the final, not just to get to a final – i.e. their goals to that of England were different from the outset.
It is also interesting to note that as it is said, Jake said this, or had this goal since 2004 whe he told these players his plan – working towards a goal cannot be underestimated and obviously over time, players slowly started buying into it and it reached a climax on Saturday, winning it.
Surely, as someone mentioned, Jake has the template for successful, goal-driven coaching – something seriously lacking in SA sport in general because we chop and change so often – even SARU to my mind is not goal-driven but live from day-to-day killing fires as they go along and not really progressing at all.
Jake’s vision from day one, his appointment of full time sports psychologist, Calder a vision specialist and the coup of the year, Eddie Jones with all his 2003 WC final experience suggests this man knows more than we give him credit for.
Jake’s template should be applied in most codes of sport, because as every expert basically said in the weeks to the semi’s and final build-up’s, everything the coach could have done is now done, it is now up to the players and most importantly, how tough they are mentally.
Good piece TG. Agree on everything.
October 25th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Its the clear difference between playing to win something specific, or playing to be good at rugby.
The AB’s always play to excel at rugby, but when it comes to pressure games, the strain gets to them and they change from their normal game plan to a conservative one in the hope of making less mistakes. They would probably win if they were mentally strong enough to stick to their game plan in the big games.
Jake coached the Boks to play a game plan that they could play to EVERY SINGLE GAME. unlike the AB’s, we didnt need to deviate from our primary game plan in the tight games – we played the same against England, Tonga, Samoa etc.
Its something I had vaguely thought about before, but I only truly appreciate the significance now. I think that our own Dummykick understood some time back.
Its like being at ‘varsity and studying for the love of knowledge, or studying to get top marks in an exam – different goals, different strategies.
Jake understood this, and that why he used the game plan he did, despite having players like Hababa, Spies, JP, Ruan, Steyn etc who could probably play the expansive game as well, if not better, than the AB’s.
Pure genius.
October 25th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Good article TG.
Well done, mate
I have to say you had me squirming in y seat with the following words – (I wondered if certain NZ influences messed your mind)
“For me there were a couple of pivotal ‘mental’ moments that of the ‘tipping point’ of success. However these moments were only meaningful because thoroughly prepared and talented players played their hearts out whilst being richly blessed with doses of good fortune.”
Then I read the rest and understood these ambiguous phrases
I nearly want to say “Hail, Henning Gericke!!!”
Nearly . . . . . .
Most of you know that soooooo many times the Boks have given me the sh*ts regarding – mental toughness. Jake White with his blabbering included.
BUT
What a privilege watching the World Cup – and seeing Jake White cool, calm and collected. (next to Eddie Jones whom Jake brought in)
What a privilege – in the Final – to see the Boks playing at the winning level – level 3+ – on the Mental Toughness Benchmark.
Looking at each WC Game it is as if the Boks changed gears to the Final.
Yes they obviously always had it in them – but Talent alone does not translate into winning performance.
The Boks stepped-up to the plate – as the saying goes.
The Final was a Mental Toughness – top performance.
Thankfully the Boks set their own Benchmark in Mental Toughness – keeping that level and even improving on it is the next step – one which I am eagerly looking forward to enjoy – as they not only maintain this new high level of mental performance but also exceeding it and setting new and higher benchmarks.
In my game – MindCoaching – performances like what the Boks gave, is what it is all about – well done to everyone involved.
Including humble TGBok himself – job well done, mate
October 25th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
I can not wonder if the Cheetahs and Lions – will emulate the Boks – Mental – performance come Saturday’s CC Final.
I also wonder how many Franchises and Unions will approach the Bok’s management team – with the purpose of duplicating and even improving on the Boks Mental preparations and performances.
October 25th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
I also wonder if somebody – will find my long and lost comment
October 25th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
I will go look for it
October 25th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Thanks
appreciated.
October 25th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
your wish and my command are one and the same!
October 25th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
He he he – I noticed the “bold” bit went mad.
Here it is again – more ‘defined’
“For me there were a couple of pivotal ‘mental’ moments that may have been part of the ‘tipping point’ of success. However these moments were only meaningful because thoroughly prepared and talented players played their hearts out whilst being richly blessed with doses of good fortune.”
When we have two equally talented and well prepared Teams – who will win ‘always’.
The Mental Tougher team !!!
Will Mental Toughness training make a difference in teams less talented and prepared?
Yes !!!
It will enable those teams to play at – their – highest level of performance.
Not employing Mental Toughness training is to deny even the most basic team an opportunity to play at their maximum – consistently.
Few people realise that even though some teams may perform at their max for even a whole game or sections of a game without Mental Toughness training –
but
to perform at your highest – consistently – that is the ‘holy grail’ in sport.
And those – consistent – top performance are possible !!!
I really can not wait for the end-of-year-tour.
October 25th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
I am not sure if you guys know the following bit of important information . . . . .
Each Bok was presented before the World Cup – to take along to France – with the book TG wrote.
The book – In The Zone.
This is how amazing I view this document – one can hardly call such a definitive piece of writing a book , can you?
At – kalahari.net
Factual evidence for Mind Coaching in Sport, 31 July 2007
Reviewer: Brand Coetzee from South Africa
84 of 156 people found the following review helpful:
This book has the potential to become the benchmark in Sporting Excellence. The biggest challenge Mind Coaches or Mental Skills Coaches have is to overcome the doubt in the mind of the Players, Coaches and Administrators in the Sport. This book provides pages and pages of evidence and facts through the 17 interviews. This book also addresses the biggest challenge writers have when conveying concepts – how do you make it ‘real’ and therefore measurable. The old saying – if you can measure it you can improve it – come alive in the book. Every player and coach in Sport should get a copy and apply it for higher performance. The book provides the evidence that Mind Coaching – does make a difference in Sporting Excellence. Watch out for a shift in Sport !!!
October 25th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
And what a – shift – was it not at the Finals
well done TG – jou ou bliksem !!!
October 25th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
ou bliksem? He’s still a lightie!
October 25th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Yes he is – which makes it all the more remarkable in my eyes !!!
Klein bliksem – then
October 25th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
key moments:
- JP’s tackle on Fijian
- John Smit’ team talk against Fiji
- Frans Steyn banger from 50m in Final
- Pakslae putting ceuto foot in touch
October 25th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Oops just now you are going to tell me he is not the smallest of stature – and then we will be ‘ruining’ his states,
Hmm, errr arghhhh statures – ahrgggggg . . .. you know what I mean . . . ????????????
October 25th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
And all the while RuggaWorld is here to introduce these geniusses to the world.
Dont forget the small people when you reach greatness you little bliksems.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Thanks for all the feedback from everyone. I think its amazing when you step back and see how many key moments there was to get this victory, like Cab said during the tournament, and even from 2004 – the shaping of the players. Talk about a massive team effort, so I hope in the days when the plaudits fall on Jake, they also fall on all the members of the management team who pulled it together.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
For me one of the best moments – that I didn’t mention here was shortly after being hammered 49-0, where South Africa was lucky to get 0.
During the post match debrief the interviewer bluntly asked Jake if now wasn’t the best time for everyone that Jake quit his job, and give the Springboks a fighting chance for France, his reply was this:
“Why, so that some other guy can take my team and win the world cup with them?”
That kind of belief and focus, even in the face of damning evidence to the contrary is something you don’t get everyday. I have always been a fan of anyone and everyone representing the Boks, however on that day, I was caught up with admiration for the sheer enormity of that comment. And for a brief moment the comment outweighed my hurt from the loss, and once the emotion subsided, the belief remained, not just for me, but I think the team as well. That was magic.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Now to sort out “that other team”, TG
October 25th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Comment by TGBok — October 25, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
That is an enormous comment to make at that stage. Definitely a character Mr White and not the technocrat so many have labelled, a thinker who chooses his own path – capable of some silly comments but some very profound ones too – and i think he often says the right thing to the team.
Hopepully a video will be brought out, me and Donner can watch together and compose folk songs to sing about him if he leaves us.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Viva Mbekistanis, viva!
October 25th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Bokdylan. You better believe it!
October 25th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Great piece TG
very informing.
Interesting use of the word foil in the last paragraph.
now I know mindbok will blow a gasket because I am stirring on a high level thread but allow me to ask the rampant Mbekistani’s just the following
CoachWhite got the job because of his vision;
he was then critisized for bad results – 49voKKol did happen, so if an unforseen bOOn as CoachMoans can be seen as a positive foil- how come the criticism to St Jake cannot be seen as a necessary part for CoachWhite to have grown to the current stature?
Has no personal growth taken place over the past 4 years- was there no “moment” of introspection on the modern version of the “longdrop”
Not all people who critized “some” of his actions, was necessarily a Jake White hater!
so maybe you okes should have a bit more hubris yourself
enjoy the moment though- I am surely doing it
and yes hopeful to see the Coach White- circa 2008 to take the RWC Champions, the MIGHTY, the respected, Springboks, to the next level of this wonderful game, Rugby Union!
October 25th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
OO,
For me whenever you go through a phase with the view of achieving a goal you will obviously face a lot of stumbling blocks and will have to re-asses along the route.
I think there is no question and Jake made his mistakes – the important thing however is to never lose focus of your goal you set out to achieve.
Players dropped and staff changes around him is testament to that.
The reason I said Jake has the template is because his achievement was always goal-driven – from the start, it was not knee-jerk reaction situations even when the going got really tough, and to have done that especially in SA given the politics, media and fans not to mention SARU is one hell of an achievement.
October 25th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
OO
If you look at the before and after shots of Jake White, over the last 4 years, something has happened
I reckon he made a lot of mistakes, and some of them very painful and costly, and at least in terms of this world cup – he appeared to have learnt many of the lessons of those mistakes. I am absolutely confident that he will make more mistakes in the near future, as any human being does.
So yes, not everyone who criticized his actions was a Jake White hater, and I think it would be besides the point to focus on the subtleties of the public, fan and press opinion over the past year. Why I included that part in the piece was to demonstrate how utterly down and out things were, were the primary thing at that time Jake was successful at (given injuries, circumstance and form) was holding on to his 2007 dream. That dogged and stubborn determination was for me part of the ‘tipping point’ of mental success for the Boks.
October 25th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Well said PA
Based on that – the template part- we should heed the Pres and say- it will be stupid to fire Coach White now.
For me the “All hail St Jake bandwagon” is as wayward as the Fire Him as soon as possible group.
That CoachWhite is one tuFF & klevah SOB ( ok lawyers read that in context) is no issue- otherwise we would all not have been smiling this week.
It now up to him to play the rest of this spiel as a RWC Champion Coach- and not the way he have dunnit in 2006.
my opinion- might not know all the facts – but it is surely not biased- based on whatever reason.
October 25th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
One thing I would like to add.
Given reports by foreign journo’s and rugby experts on the Boks conduct since lifting the Webb Ellis I think speaks volumes of exactly what was instilled in this team.
I find that personally, if you work really hard at something and you eventually achieve it, there is a contentness (if there is such a word) and humbleness in victory or reaching the goal – the Boks display this according to all reports.
No gloating from either Jake or the players.
A feeling of mission accomplished, and a job well done.
They had to prove it to themselves more than to me, you or anyone else in SA.
October 25th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
That dogged and stubborn determination was for me part of the ‘tipping point’ of mental success for the Boks.
Comment by TGBok — October 25, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
And that part should be praised and admired by all of us.
We must be very thankful indEEd!
October 25th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Maybe what I want to say is the following
I am ready for CoachWhite in 2008, not for StJake!
And that is not based on anything that I observed CoachWhite doing since Saturday night!
October 25th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
OO,
You know I am a big White fan – but even I have my doubts on the impact he will have on the Boks after this – or whether it is a good thing.
I guess I will make up my mind when he speaks about it.
For me now I am leaning towards being not such a good thing if he carries on in the same capacity.
October 25th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Make sense PA
So its about his own 2008-2011 vision?
October 25th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Well judging by the actions of his mentor- he will not be available in 2008.
But I believe he deserve an opportunity to develop SA rugby even further, should he be willing to take up the daunting task!
October 25th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
yes Foil should be reflective side in when
baking potatoes
And iot matters not which way foil tied to the scrotum when swimming in the Zambezi faces
you face the prospect of losing your natters either way
October 25th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Cheers for now
BOKKE!
PS that include CoachWhite and the BlazerlessOne!
October 25th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
OO,
For sure.
But I reckon it cannot be a 2011 goal this time.
The weird thing about success is that it is demanded once achieved.
With this team I will have no doubt Jake could, if he sets his mind to it and really want it, achieve shorter goals now – 1st being the first coach in how many years to win a series (2 matches) in NZ next year and possibly the 3N.
Then the Lions in 2009.
Then look to the WC in 2011.
Given the age of this group of players, and apart from Os and Monty, all should be available come 2011 – with a few additions of course given you will have Marius Joubert’s and Joe van Niekerks that falls off the wagon.
October 25th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Umshinikopsterkte Wamindi !
October 25th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
OO
Sien jou Saterdag !
October 25th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
oh God… battern down the hatches in Bloem
October 25th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Comment by blikOOrBok aka Oranje Orakel — October 25, 2007 @ 4:02 pm
nah, i take your point, i am just joking about JW, besides now that he’s won the thing i dont think he gives a fig who supports him or not.
criticism is fine and there’s undoubtely a wole spectrum of ppl varying between ‘hate’ and ‘love’ for his coaching.
However, there’s one thing no-one can take away from him and is imo pretty much indisputable. His goal was the RWC and he achieved it, not the easiest thing to do in a country like SA regardless of the players.
October 25th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
OO,
since you have put forward a challenging point to the StJake fanclub, I have one for you?
Is SARSU’s ultimate aim is to generate profit off the back of all these transformation projects once they have their foot in the SA rugby door or are they are a charity organisation that simply aims to give back to the community for rugby’s sake only?
October 25th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
cab,
I can pick that one up. SARSU is a non-profit organisation so all money is used to cover expenses and plough back into projects. The ultimate goal is to improve rugby in SA at all levels. That’s in a nutshell, the detail is available on the website.
October 25th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Now I knwo what the 0 two logo on the England jersey means
played two, won zero
October 25th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
And SA Rugby goes and cocks it all up again…
http://www.news24.com/News24/Sport/RWC_2007/0,,2-9-2187_2209117,00.html
Boks slammed for Soweto snub
25/10/2007 17:13
Johannesburg – The Springboks were accused on Thursday of blowing the chance of spreading rugby among South Africa’s black population by scrapping plans to include the biggest township on a World Cup victory parade.
SA Rugby, already under fire over the lack of black players in the Springbok team, said it had to strike Soweto off its list of venues because of time constraints although the team is still scheduled to tour all the major cities.
“Unfortunately, while that was the initial plan, the parade does not include Soweto,” SA Rugby media manager Rayaan Adriaanse said.
“It’s simply a matter of logistics and time constraints. We would have liked to go to possibly the entire country but with logistics it’s just not possible.”
The win over England in Saturday’s final has renewed debate about the racial make-up of the Boks who included only two players of colour in their starting lineup and the Soweto visit was seen as a significant public relations gesture.
Dali Ndebele, director of the Soweto rugby club, said the Springboks had “missed an opportunity” to promote the game and boost the morale of young black players who had been ecstatic at the team’s achievement in France.
Banners ready
“Young kids who play rugby, and even those who don’t, were very much looking forward to welcoming and seeing the Springboks in Soweto,” Ndebele said.
“Already we had made plans about how we were going to welcome them. Our sponsors had banners ready, songs were composed.
“It’s a big disappointment to us, sponsors, the kids, and the community who rallied behind the team. It’s a missed opportunity to celebrate with the real masses.”
After arriving back home on Tuesday, coach Jake White said the Springboks must learn from the “mistakes” that followed the first World Cup triumph in 1995 which they failed to use as a springboard to make the team more representative of the country’s racial mix.
Ran out of drinks
Tsietsi Louw, a lawmaker for the ruling African National Congress, said the decision to drop Soweto from the victory parade typified the “arrogance” of the rugby authorities after black supporters had got behind the team.
“During the finals, the fan parks were filled with black people. Township shebeens (bars) ran out of drinks with blacks supporting their team,” he said.
“One would have hoped that with all transformation talk going on, at least the trophy would be taken to the townships for black fans to also join in celebrations.
“It is inexcusable for them to snub them like that… These are the people and children who regard those players as their heroes, irrespective of their colour.”
Chichi Maponya, a businesswoman who sponsored a rugby theme park during the tournament said it was “sad and unfortunate” that Soweto was being overlooked.
“Everybody was looking forward to welcoming them. My tenants (at a new shopping mall), and school kids nearby were planning to throw them a huge welcome party.
“We just hope and wish they will learn from their previous mistakes and not lock a black child out of the development of the sport.”
Promote the game
While interest in rugby has traditionally been confined to the white minority, the Springbok win was hailed as a chance to broaden its popularity.
Ndebele, whose club was only established in 1998, said: “We are trying to promote the game but they (rugby authorities) don’t want to come to the party.”
“If they were serious about transforming the game and encouraging blacks to play, they would have thought of starting the parade in a township like Alexandra (north of Johannesburg) and Soweto.
“These are the communities and their kids who never get a chance to see these people play because they cannot afford the tickets to the games. It was a lifetime opportunity for them.”
October 25th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Go SAAAAAAARRRUUUUU
As in SAAAAARRRRyyyy for UUUUUU
October 25th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Hi all people.
Hi Bokdylan.
October 25th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
howdy HO
October 25th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
key moments:
- JP’s tackle on Fijian
- John Smit’ team talk against Fiji
- Frans Steyn banger from 50m in Final
- Pakslae putting ceuto foot in touch
Comment by cab — October 25, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
IMO the KEY moment was Burger’s suspension! After that the boks were the most diciplined I have ever seen a team…
October 25th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
There’s pretty much f’all to talk about round here anymore not even a decent slagging to adhere to, or a philosophical argument, neither the chit chat around favorite music tastes or boerewors rolls, nah hardly anything to write home about since they cake walked this little waltz to the WC throne, what a bore.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
All this psychological warra warra is overrated, normally by practitioners of the science, the veracity of which is increasingly being questioned.
Proof of this is that the one team that couldn’t afford a mind mechanic arguably achieved the most at the RWC 2007. Argentina.
Add to this the island teams who are another case in point!
October 25th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
You guys should maybe pop around during the day…
October 26th, 2007 at 2:29 am
What for tea and scones Bob?