Hands up anyone who still thinks John Smit is an international class tighthead?
Hands up anyone who does not think John Smit should be the starting Bok hooker?
Hope there were no sweaty armpits visible!
Tank Lanning, Sport24
With the Boks leading 12-0 after almost as many minutes, it looked like an Azzuri drubbing was on the cards, but up to that point there had yet to be a set-scrum. When the teams did finally scrum down, the Italians were like a piece of granite, and completely destroyed the Boks in the second scrum of the match.
And it did not get any prettier … The Boks must have been chuffed to have those points on the board when the physical slaughter began … Luckily for the Boks, there were very few scrums in the first half. And they must have sighed a giant sigh of relief when seeing that Italian tighthead Martin Castrogivani had been benched at half time!
But the pain continued, and I seriously began to wonder if Div was perhaps not watching the game? Did he know that he had another tighthead on the bench! Was he playing games on his cell phone?
Crazy substitutions
Instead he made two crazy substitutions. I know he wanted to give Bakkies Botha a time out, but with the scrum in so much pain, to bring Victor Matfield on to partner Andries Bekker seemed crazy. And with Danie Rossouw basically MIA, surely Jean Deysel should have come on to replace him rather than Ryan Kankowski, who seemed to be coming into his own? It still looks very much like the subs are worked according to a plan, rather than according to what is unfolding during the game …
But he did eventually make the front row changes. And suddenly not only did the scrum improve, but the Boks got the upper hand in the game. John Smit was back at hooker, BJ Botha at tighthead and Beast Mtawarira at loosehead.
Are the days of the Smit experiment as a tighthead over? Here’s hoping …
Now while BJ Botha deserves all credit that comes his way, let’s not forget that he had the luxury of having Smit scrum down at hooker beside him. And that is where the Bok skipper adds big value as a scrummager – He is an enormously strong scrummaging hooker. But that does not make you strong enough to be a prop …
And let’s not just write off Wian du Preez and Adriaan Strauss. Both had difficult games, but the scrum pain was coming down the tighthead side. It would be like comparing 8th men and scrumhalves playing behind different strength packs … Wian du Preez, especially, looks like he can handle himself at this level.
Tighthead is the secret
What worries me is that it has again taken something like this to prove to the coach what a lot of us have been saying for a very long time. Your scrum strength is determined by your tighthead and John Smit is not an international tighthead. Can Div really now still claim to have enough technical knowledge to coach a national side?
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Can Div really now still claim to have enough technical knowledge to coach a national side?
==========
Moot point.
►Playing an unfit LH at
TH (Heinke) makes one wonder.
►And then there is Jacobs at 12.
►Tiger Woods at 10 when he states he
wants to be a 9. (Maybe golf is really
Snor’s strong point?)
►Tina Steyn’s treatment.
►Lots of crazy substitutions.
►Not selecting tried combinations when
he can.
Those are only the ones I can
quickly think of.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:00 am
And if you think hard you will find about 20 more
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:04 am
Reply to Bunny @ 2:00 am: I am sorry even after I spend my whole Sunday reading John book(where he praise Peter’s ability as a coach)I can not trust him after the socking selections he made on the tour and his inability to see when a player is wrong for the team.
John is talking the whole time in his book that is not what is good for the player but what is good for the team but I can not see what Snor, Dick and Gold brings to this team.
I really thought he was not that bad but since the announcement of the tour team I just lost faith in him. And he is just falling in my books even more.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:07 am
Reply to Bunny @ 2:04 am: You have to earn the respect of the SA Rugby public, does not mean if you are chosen that we will respect everything you do or say.
We are not idiots, we know more about the game than what you think, do not bullshit us.
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:05 am
First it was the game-plan then the fly-half then the prop.
Which loopy idea will go next?
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:30 am
Last night I was bored and I read some comments following our 3N victory in NZ where John lifted the title and scrummed the NZ loosehead into another week.
Then I read some comments in the last 3 or so days here…
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:08 am
Reply to Morné @ 8:30 am:
I’m just bored with rugby full-stop… from NZ… to RSA and quota’s… to Aus and pop-stars…
MMA… the only way to go…
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:09 am
Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 9:08 am:
The only true ‘all-round’ contact sport left…
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:10 am
Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 9:08 am:
What is MMA?
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:11 am
Oh and for the record, when I read the comments, you were one of the very few that consistently bitched, the others were heaping praises.
So you get the RW consistency award for 2009!!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:20 am
Reply to Morné @ 9:11 am:
Hehe… at least I’m ‘consistent’…
MMA- Mixed Martial Arts- ‘real’ athletes that train themselves 24/7 in as many of the pure forms of fighting to be as close to being undefeated in the ‘cage’ within the limited rules… and now the fastest growing spectator sport in the world… (albeit I’ve been waiting for decades for the masses to get to where it is now)…
Our Bok’s can learn alot from some of these ‘amateur’ boys…
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:28 am
Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 9:20 am:
Wacthed Death Race recently, human being just love carnage and people getting moered.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:34 am
Reply to Morné @ 9:28 am:
Oh so true… and in this modern (really not that survivalist world)… it’s fun from the couch… whether it be brutal test rugga (that we are not playing) to the even more rounded and brutal MMA comps… (UFC being the pinnacle at the moment)…
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:48 am
Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 9:34 am:
Very true hey!
I was having a converstation (read fight) with a vegan-come-vegetarian not too long ago…
Now I am all for respecting people and their right to choose how they want to live and eat, but do not force it down on other people.
And the conversation basically went around how human beings were designed to be meat eaters and hunter-gatherers and although there is no need for it now (I personally would never be able to hunt an animal for instance), it has become very clear human beings has become soft in a sense.
However our primal instinct, survival of the fittest type of instincts will never be able to surpress the hunger for our primal need to kill or fight to become leader of your ‘tribe’ or ‘pride’.
If we do not do it ourselves as you mentioned living in a non-survivalist world we get our fix the next best way, sitting on our arses and getting a high of other people doing it!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:50 am
Reply to Morné @ 9:11 am: We have the right to bitch, when something clearly does not work, John went good on two matches at TH, Thirst Lions match and the last NZ match.
If something does not work it does not work. This was proven when John went to hooker over the weekend. Earn up to your mistakes and learn from them.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:59 am
Reply to Bunny @ 9:50 am:
But did John Smit not work or is it the fact that the hooker that took over from Smit is not known as a strong scrummagin hooker as Smit was/is?
Why is it CJ is so utterly kak when he was a first choice in the World Cup?
Was it because he was aided by a strong scrummaging hooker perhaps?
So is John a kak 3 or does he simply not have a strong scrummaging hooker inside him?
This theory is amplified when you consider that our scrum went backwards with the much vaunted power of Bakkies for most of the year, yet when we had two bean-poles on against Italy, with John at hooker we went forward?
And another point, is it only me who reckons we have the only scrum in the world where the loosies do absolutely fuckall?
Then compare the 8-man scrums we see from the NH teams…
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:01 am
I think Nick Mallet is proven correct over and over again from what he said in 1998
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:07 am
Reply to Morné @ 10:01 am: Italy is not gonna rattle any big tournament!!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:11 am
Reply to Morné @ 9:59 am: In John’s own words he said that Bismark is the strongest hooker he has seen, so surely strength means jackshit when it comes to international scrum time.
You must also remember it does not help a Lock to keep on scumming if your prop is getting pushed back you will pop him or break is neck or back.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:12 am
I do not think it is the end for #3 for John. he can move there in the last 20min – when BJ or CJ goes off and Bismarck comes on!
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:13 am
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
Reply to Bunny @ 10:11 am:
Sheridan is the strongest prop in the world if it is competed in lifting bench press weights.
Being strong and being a strong scrummager in a specific position is not the same thing.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:57 am
Reply to Morné @ 10:27 am: That’s what I said
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
As a rugby player (you know the ones from 9 to 15 who tackle and score tries and kick etc) I simply do not understand hats going on iin the scrums so I cannot really comment.
Why cant the props just put thier hands on the ground (to avoid injury) and then have 8 men pushing as hard as possible and see who get the ball?
Scrumming is done by the 16 guys with the lowest IQ on the field, so why is this the most technical and difficult aspect of the game?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
Reply to newbokshields @ 11:00 am:
owest IQ on the field,
—————–
You gonna step on somebody here!!
I actually think that is not a bad idee, putting hands on the ground and see who is the strongest and not who can get away with murder because the ref do not know his face from his arsh what is going on in the scrums.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 am
Reply to newbokshields @ 11:00 am:
Correction.
A study has proven players in the front row on average actually has the highest IQ…
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
Reply to Bunny @ 11:05 am:
Odd that an idea of how to fix the scrums can come from a backline player!
Morne who did that study? Props R’ Us?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
Reply to Morné @ 11:06 am:
Is having a high IQ the same
as using those brains?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:12 am
Reply to Boertjie @ 11:10 am: Not in some cases
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:12 am
Reply to newbokshields @ 11:09 am:
Hehe, actually an independent study from a UK based company if I am not mistaken.
They wanted to prove whether the dumb forward tag is fact or myth!
Reply to Boertjie @ 11:10 am:
Now that is the million dollar question!!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:13 am
Look personally I do not even think props know half the time wtf is going on in the scrums!!!
That is why props only ‘mature’ at a late age (or thats the excuse they use)…
For my money, they just learn how to cheat the ref better by then…
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:15 am
Truth be told most backline players have too much fear which hampers their ability to engage the high IQ mass.
At the same time many fat okes might have a high IQ but the minute they see another fat oke their brains go into ‘violence’ mode wich renders their off-field intel useless.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:16 am
Reply to Morné @ 11:13 am: To many laws for idiot refs who do not know what is going on and guess their way through a test match
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:18 am
Hands up who played prop in their hay day????
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:18 am
I agree Morne.
And from a spectale point of view its really bloody annoying those resets plus getting penalised with no one knowing how or why?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:18 am
what a laugh
howzit Shields
skawe jou oNNerbroek alwEEr?
or working on the coMMish for extra hits generated?
Backline players
hangkas joBBies that walk the talk
and knocks the baLL- kick out on the fuLL
etc
Shields- on IQ
most of the “frontrow” grunters in SA have a predominance of Germanic ancestry
now those of Oirish Ancestry should be wise not to start comparisons on IQ
But then even IQ is just part of it….
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:19 am
Reply to Bunny @ 11:18 am:
HowZit Wortel man
Count me first!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:20 am
Reply to Bunny @ 11:18 am:
I think its only Willem Bunny.
A study in the Freesate last year revealed he is the only ex prop who knows how to use the internet in the entire province.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 am
Reply to WiLLem @ 11:19 am:
Yes wintie back who knock on or kicks out on the full are bloody annoying.
But the chubbies do 100 things that are annoying, like driving close the the line thinking it will generate a try whereas you only score once out of every 10000 attempts?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
The law changes forced teams to concentrate on scrums because of the opposition back line that needs to stand 10 meters away and now it is an attacking set piece again.
Now people are trying different techniques to bullshit the refs, law changes come but refs do not adopt to it and then are force by Pansy O Brian to enforce something and they do not know why and what
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:25 am
Reply to WiLLem @ 11:19 am: i played there for one game when I was O/14 and one of the props did not arrive at the game so my opinion means jack shit on this
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
Reply to Bunny @ 11:25 am:
hehehe
its a dirty job but those of us that is
1 not natural athletes;
or
2 teachers pets, nEEds to play somewhere.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
Reply to newbokshields @ 11:20 am:
hehehe
Os himself is mighty handy wiFF twiTTer!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:36 am
Reply to Morné @ 11:13 am:
AgrEE!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
Ja hell I was wondering. Os and Tank Lanning both on twitter? Its a fatboy revolution!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
So Willem back tot he topic, what do you think will help the game move away fro the scrum as the ultimate time waisting experience?
Why can the props not put their hands on the ground?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
Reply to newbokshields @ 11:41 am: Ja what do you think as the only specialist in this field here
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:49 am
A study in the Freesate last year revealed he is the only ex prop who knows how to use the internet in the entire province.
=====
The others are still struggling
to come to terms with shade net.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
Reply to newbokshields @ 11:41 am:
Shields
Rugby Union is also about the setpieces.
Those with a rugbyUnion culture dont mind the time “wasted” on setpieces.
That is excluding the backline fairies and the Australians- who are condeMMed to suck hindtit on the income stakes. My advice to them is- Worldrugby can survive without the oZZies- who wants to change the game to suit them – rather get the Krauts, kAAskoPPe etc interested.
So my take is RugbyUnion should give aLL eFForts to change the game, fundamentaLLy the gOOde olde
Stabilizing yourself with an arm on the ground wiLL not change a lot- one shoulder joint and its aTTached muscles isnt going to redirect the rest of the two packs- same goes if its 4 arms stabilizing.
Its about a visible cue for the ref to blow- and its the refs whistle that slows up the game.
resets the scrum…..
If anything
simplify the laws
and remove the backthrEE from the scrum- much leSS momentum to fracture necks- and the “faTTies” stiLL have a contest for the baLL and the “soul” of rugby Union.
Front row mandatory
other 5 can rotate to lock and is used for aTTack and defense.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
Its the aDDed shove from the 8th man that cause the deaths- also the reason why okes like Kanko isnt a matchup for meanies like Danie etc come scrumtime in NH conditions- which incidentaLLy wiLL also be the conditions for RWC 2011.
Locks only wiLL surely aLLow the Frontrows to scrum- in contrast with sevens
the combined froce on the spinal columns of the Frontrows wiLL be much leSS.
Then the Props can have a fuLL go at each other baLL quickly available for the backline to knock again
crouch touch pause…..
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
Reply to WiLLem @ 11:53 am:
Klink na moffieskrums en nog
meer dom voorspelers wat 10,
12 en 13 sal probeer speel.
Feit is in die ou dae het
“grips” nooit ge-”slip” nie.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
After watching the Italy game again (trust me – don’t do it!!) I have come to a few conclusions on what needs to be done to beat the fooking Oirish!
to wake them up!
1st give Danie and Kanko
A few areas are really troublesim at the moment.
1. The back row does not work as a unit
2. Morne Steyn is stunting the back-line
So here my team for the oirsih:
1. Wian
2. Smit
3. BJ Botha
4. Bakkies
5. Matfield
6. Brussouw
7. Deysel
8. Danie Rossouw (anyone other than Kanko)
9. F Du Preez
10. Ruan
11. Habs
12. WO
13. J Fourie
14. JPP
15. Zane
16. Beast
17. Strauss
18. Bekker
19. Potgieter
20. Hougaardt
21. Morne Steyn
22. Viljoen
Still not happy with the back-row but this is a team selected of the players we have on tour and one that maybe could squeek a win against the Oirish!
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Reply to Boertjie @ 11:58 am:
Oudste
The players have become tOO strong.
Even the koch’s and the meanies of yesteryear would have sliPPed their grips now.
remove the backthrEE with a license to frEEforaLL up front and with the baLL out quickly you stiLL wont get a lot of neckinjuries at pro level.
Mark my words its the 8-man’s bind that turns the locks bodyweight into a kiLLer.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
No Willem you get me wrong. I love a good scrum. I also love how certain teams (the boks with Spies) with a good strong 8 can survive even if scrums retreat.
But this touch pause engage whistle touch pause engage whistle bullocks is just not on.
Imagine how exciting the game will be (without losing any nuance) if games were delayed live so that the producer can cut out all the reset scrums? It will be a 60 minutes package of pure rugby heaven?
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
No disrespect – but on average- my generation frontrowers would have murdered your club players. We might have lost the fight due to “the not so tuFFneSS” but we were biGGer and stronger.
My clubside generation would be murdered by today’s schOOl lAAities.
The power in the legs have just increased tOO much.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Willem I must say the Sevens Scrum is prpbably more ‘manly’ and less technical in that its 3 okes really gunning for the ball.
A 5 man scrum might be a rather good thing. But if the 8 us the problem, why not simply remove the 8?
What do the rules say? Can I remove my 8 from the scrum volantarily?
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Fair shields
I just gave my opinion.
I dislike the cuRRent state of aFFairs as much as you do.
The lawmakers MUST mitigate the risk of injure- hence aLL the laws- which is the reason for the whistleblowing chaos- ( mybe because aLL the refs are waNNabEE backline players anyway- and most are short- maybe scrumhalves that could not paSS)
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Reply to newbokshields @ 12:08 pm:
Dont know if you could take out the 8- who would want to do it unleSs you have total dominance?
The two flankers can stiLL be huge lock like players- its aDDed weight.
just leave the two locks- and the backrow to stand behind the flyhalf. Only one scrumhalf to aTTend the baLL- Doesnt nEEd to be 9.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Reply to JT @ 11:58 am:
yeah agree, as long as they dont play kanko, we stand alot better chance.
Might make 2 changes to your team, which is start with Bekker at lock who is looking more hungry and fitter than Bakkies and Matfield and played well last week; and secondly start Morne at fullback. FdP is out injured, so i;d like to see Frans Hougaard get a start, but its probably going to be pienaar at 9 rather than 10 as you have him.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
But Willem can a prop not protect himself much better if he is allowed to keep one hand on the ground?
Will this not prevent most injuries, especially at schools level?
And then to make it even safer you make the rule that the 8 must be bound to the scrum but is not allowed to have his head in the scrum?
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Cab and JT, Morne has had one bad game. He keeps a very high standard and will no doubt bounce back big time against Ireland.
I will play Ruan at 9, as this player will be hungry like hell to regain this spot seeing as:
1) Hougaard has so far struggled
2) Snor seems more flexible now that Smit might move back to 2.
I agree on Bekker.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Reply to newbokshields @ 12:21 pm:
Shields
A prop wiLL stabilise himself maybe a couple of seconds longer on the east west axis- but the injury seldom haPPen because of that preSSure
its the break at the north south axis that kills and paralyses.
lOOk- i dont mind the hand on the ground- I used the sond grap to either push or puLL- and I blieve its that secondary grip that was the target of the laws.
Legislate a 5 man scrum with 4 arms on the deck-NOT aLLowed to bind
can work weLL!
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
“sond grap”
Second grab- rather
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Reply to newbokshields @ 12:23 pm:
Morne is a great player and could be a great flyhalf, but what this tour needs, apart from a more committed forwards effort, is for our lot to start putting some width on the ball and attacking the oppo outwide, steyn and FdP are putting everything straught onto the boot and up into the air, its an unbeatable strategy on our fields, but it simply surrenders possession in the NH. No good, either Pienaar must play or Steyn must add some variation into his game and start attacking the gain line with ball in hand.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Reply to JT @ 11:58 am:
Lekker span daai.
Crucial for backrow combinations
to play together and settle as
units.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Reply to newbokshields @ 12:23 pm:
2 bad games – He seems to have lost his mojo here in the NH. Too cold?
Steyn has been very hesitant and the rest of the back-line hardly had any good ball but it starts at the front too. Kanko IMO is the worst 8 under pressure I have ever seen at the back of a scrum. FdP never got decent ball from him. Danie Rossouw did much better later on in the Italy game!
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Reply to Boertjie @ 1:29 pm:
brussouw needs a partner to help him steal the oppo ball. While Brussouw does his job he needs a Juan Smith to keep the oppo loosies off him for a split sec to get the job done. Danie and Kanko did not do that!
Burger could be the ideal partner but then he needs to play to the plan – can he do it?
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Morne is a team player. He plays what he is told to play. I have no doubt that if the coaches give him instruction to attack the line he will do so.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Reply to newbokshields @ 1:55 pm:
PDV wants the players to think on there feet – maybe we should play a prop at 10 then!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Reply to JT @ 1:32 pm:
Good point. Fetchers also
needs some protection or
assistance.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:59 pm
poll on Keo:
Should John Smit be moved back to hooker?
* Yes
1192% of all votes
* No
93% of all votes
Total Votes: 1285 Started: November 21, 2009
Close call
November 24th, 2009 at 9:45 am
So any klevah reasons why a 5 man scrum wont take away the ethos of the game but spEEd it up?
Any playertypes that wiLL be in leSS demand?
So what are the laws that nEEds to be simplified?