Wallabies going soft?

July 5, 2010
Posted by Morné

Are the Wallabies being properly conditioned for the Tri Nations Tests?
Article by Bruce Ross

A characteristic of the Deans era Wallabies is their seeming inability to sustain their performance over the full 80 minutes of a game. This raises the question of whether their training methods are appropriate for the intense physical demands of modern international rugby. In short, is there enough emphasis on strength training?

It is difficult to draw any firm conclusions from the team’s patchy performances in the June Tests as quality of the opposition and the effects of long distance travel were complicating factors. A more valid measure is how the team has performed against its closest neighbour. In contests between Australia and New Zealand distance travelled is not really a relevant factor and both nations always endeavour to select their strongest team, so these matches provide an ideal environment to search for consistent patterns evident over a number of matches.

In the ten Trans-Tasman Tests prior to Robbie Deans assuming control the Wallabies led at half-time in 3 matches, were level in 2 matches and were behind in 5 matches. In the second half the Wallabies outscored their opponents 4 times, scored equal points once and were outscored 5 times. Overall they won 3 games and lost 7.

There have been 8 Wallabies-All Blacks games since Deans has taken over. During this period the Wallabies won an impressive 6 out of 8 first halves, but lost 7 out of 8 second halves and 7 out of 8 matches! The one time when the Wallabies won the second half and the match was in July 2008, when Deans and his assistants had just taken over.  Since then the team has lost every second half and every match.

On June 28 the Sydney Morning Herald ran an article titled, “Don’t despair – fitter Wallabies might rise from last in Tri Nations rankings”. The author, Spiro Zavas, wrote:

“It is an open secret that many Waratahs and Brumbies players shirked their full training obligations in the Super 14. An unfortunate feature of the Wallabies, this season and last season, has been the way they have faded in the second half of Test matches. A fitter Wallabies team might convert those half-time leads to full-time victories.”

To address this problem “the Wallabies conditioning coach will monitor the entire squad with GPS tracking devices that will record the intensity of their training.” Distance covered is hardly an appropriate measure of intensity given that rugby players spend much of a training session in prolonged static physical engagements. But having been labelled “shirkers” it is totally predictable that the players will run themselves into the ground to impress their masters.

Unofficial feedback from Wallaby training in the lead-up to the Tri Nations is that the players are running hills three times a week as well as having forwards running 100 metres 10 times with a 20 second rest between and 200 metres 10 times with a 20 second rest.

So the overwhelming emphasis appears to be on trying to improve aerobic fitness which ignores the fact that rugby is a strength-oriented sport, certainly the most strength-oriented of all the football codes. Players need to have a solid strength base to be able to compete for 80 minutes.

Traditionally Australian rugby has placed less emphasis on strength and physicality than any of the other major rugby countries, and it appears that this has become more pronounced in the Deans era. Rather than pursuing max strength the Wallabies’ weights sessions have reportedly seen a heavy focus on bar-speed routines using loads as little as 30% of 1RM.

One of the enduring impressions of the 2007 World Cup was the ferocity of the Northern Hemisphere teams at the breakdown. It is probably too late to do much about the upcoming Tri Nations, but unless the approach to training changes dramatically the Wallabies are likely to be physically overpowered in New Zealand next year.

Bruce is a RuggaWorld contributor and resident in Aussie.

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66 Comments

  1. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 9:39 am Reply to this comment

    The Aussies can never be discounted in any competition. They are some of the cleverest (read slyest) rugby players around. After all, being sly is almost a pre-requisite for entering the country :lol:

  2. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 9:48 am Reply to this comment

    I would like to know how bruce is betting…
    I talk a good game but as soon as I have to put my money on it I think with my head and not my heart.
    Aus v SA – where would you put your money!? IMO the Aussies are still fav. for that one. 3rd away test for SA…

  3. bok_in_oz bryce_in_oz says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 10:09 am Reply to this comment

    Despite the many retirements, moving to ‘greener pastures’, injuries etc etc the Wallabies have seen since 2007 came to a close and the Dean’s era began… I’m yet to see anything in his tenure that has impressed me more than what the Aussie coaches have achieved in this year’s 3N…

  4. bok_in_oz bryce_in_oz says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 10:11 am Reply to this comment

    Always going to be difficult when you’re first choice front-row, bench front-row, locks, chief pilferer and half-back are not present…

  5. bok_in_oz bryce_in_oz says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 10:11 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 10:11 am:

    And 8…

  6. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 10:12 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 10:09 am:

    Sorry mate, but I have no idea what you are trying to say in the last sentence. Please elaborate?

  7. bok_in_oz bryce_in_oz says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 10:23 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 10:09 am:

    Edited…

    “Despite the many retirements, moving to ‘greener pastures’, injuries etc etc the Wallabies have seen since 2007 came to a close and the Dean’s era began… I’m yet to see anything in his tenure that has impressed me more than what the Aussie coaches have achieved in this year’s S14

  8. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 10:37 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 10:23 am:

    Ah thanks.

    Indeed. Many expecting Deans to turn things around drastically for the Aussies, but it seems it is not so. That said, he is a wiley coach and I presume will adapt where required. He still has a year to bring the young ‘uns through.

  9. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 10:53 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 10:37 am:

    I think Deans is quickly finding out there is a massive difference between being a franchise coach, where you have a lot more control and being a national coach where you have no control.

    It was Eddie Jones I think who quoted Arsen Wenger last week where he said the difference between the two is at one you can control the talent coming through and moving up – at national level you have no control and have to rely on others to do that for you.

  10. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:07 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 10:53 am:

    Yep, but the Aussies are well organised, they will spot the short comings and adapt accordingly.

    Deans already changing the training scheme of he players from power based to endurance based (in a nutshell). He has a plan, whether it will work is another story altogether. Or maybe their goals posts have just been shifted slightly.

  11. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:12 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 11:07 am:

    I am more concerned about the support he is getting…

    Aussies are known to quite publicly oppose the coach’s wishes (demands) through not only other coaches involved in franchises, but players too who are known to publicly strike even…

  12. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:17 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 11:12 am:
    Deans himself said that he was not a good rugby coach but a good facilitator or manager.

    He has taken longer than I thought he would to get good, consistent performances out of the Wallabies, but I think they are not far off. The 3N will reveal a lot from all 3 teams I think.

  13. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:23 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 11:17 am:

    For sure and I think that is my point.

    A good facilitator is only as good as the people he works with (or against) and the scope he is allowed to operate in…

    I dont think he is getting much from the Oz-mob and I fear Aus is going to get spanked this 3N with their best hope a win against the Boks on their 3rd week on tour in Brissie.

  14. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:31 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 11:23 am:

    Deans does have the advantage that he has an extra 3 weeks to prepare for the 3N and gets to see the other teams play twice before taking them on.

    I reckon we will have a good idea of the state of affairs within the next month.

    Unfortunately I will miss the first 2 weeks when I leave on holiday. No internet and French terrestrial tv (maybe).

  15. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:32 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 11:23 am:

    Are the S14 franchises and players really that anti-Deans?

  16. DavidS Champion Supporter DavidS says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:38 am Reply to this comment

    Hmmmm

    Incapable of an 22 man 85 minute performance sounds very very very familiar….

    Anyone?

    Anyone?

    Hmmmm?

  17. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:40 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to DavidS @ 11:38 am:

    Hahahaha :soek:

  18. Deon Deon says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 11:46 am Reply to this comment

    Well I wil not write off the Walaabies yet. Atleast not until the last seconds of any game they play. Deans has realised that he has (was forced into) an opportunity to blood new players.

    There are alot of players that are on the sidelines. For the Boks sake I am more worried about them than the All Blacks.

  19. DavidS Champion Supporter DavidS says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 12:22 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Deon @ 11:46 am:

    If you do not underestimate them and play to strengths it’ll be a cakewalk

    Biggest battle is in the mind for the Boks

    AB’s have made Aus bunnies by doing their talking on the field… we still fall for the hype

    They lost at home to England with a gay Welshman officiating FFS…..

  20. bok_in_oz bryce_in_oz says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 12:28 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to DavidS @ 11:38 am:

    But of course… always the key for top level test rugga… :wink:

  21. Methos The French Stormer Methos says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 12:31 pm Reply to this comment

    Ollie

    Where are you going on Holiday ?

    Cheers

  22. attributor Bruce Ross says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 12:39 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to JT @ 9:48 am: I would always support my countrymen. As far as betting goes there may be sufficiently good odds about the Wallabies to justify a small wager on some matches, but I am by no means confident.

  23. attributor Bruce Ross says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 12:41 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 11:07 am: I must have missed the “power based” phase of their training.

  24. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 12:41 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Bruce Ross @ 12:39 pm:

    Bruce thanks for this mate, I did not say this in my email but if you ever feel like giving us the low-down from down-under it will be hugely appreciated!

  25. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 1:22 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Methos @ 12:31 pm:

    Going to spend a week near Boulogne.

    Reply to Bruce Ross @ 12:41 pm:

    ??
    Reading your article, it seems that the Aussies are working more on their endurance and less on their strength (power) training, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?

  26. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 1:23 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 1:22 pm:

    P.S. thanks for the article

  27. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 1:46 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Bruce Ross @ 12:39 pm:

    When the game is 50/50 I always bet on the opposition to the team I support – that way if they lose you can always find some relief in the winnings. If they win you are happy anyway ;-)

  28. The Year of the Cheetah entropy says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 1:52 pm Reply to this comment

    Its game plan related as far as I am concerned.

    Jake White started playing to Bok strengths mainly because the Bulls were doing it.

    It makes sense for Deans to copy the Reds game plan, which is a radical departure from most other teams.

    Its a great game plan and a great spectacle to watch. With the right players in the right frame of mind you can beat other strong teams by 30 points playing that way.

  29. attributor Bruce Ross says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 1:55 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 1:22 pm: You have understood exactly what I was saying, Ollie.

    In January 2006 I put an article on my own blog, http://myoquip.blogspot.com, which drew attention to a post on the old IRB forums written by one of your compatriots, Nick Tatalias. This was a contribution to a long thread addressing the issue of why South African teams had been so unsuccessful at that time in Super 12 competitions.

    Nick Tatalias suggested that when conditioning coaches observed some of their forwards standing with hands on knees trying to catch their breath, they concluded that the players needed more aerobic type conditioning; but he maintained that this “further exacerbates the problem. When in truth the issue is that greater levels of strength are needed, better anaerobic conditioning and lastly sprint endurance.”

    Tatalias’s view was that the players were tired because they had to recruit a relatively high percentage of their muscular strength in each encounter. He contrasted a forward who could squat 120kg with another whose squat was 200kg. The first player might have to use all his strength to push the opposition while the other might be using only 60% of his strength.

    The player with strength reserve will be stronger at the end of the game and still have energy to exert on physically over powering the opposition as well as energy to marshal troops, maintain discipline and minimise mental errors.

    Tatalias’s ideas had a big impact on my own thinking. I often use the rather crude analogy of someone running a V8 motor against an opponent with a 4 cylinder engine.

    This approach has been extensively used in my own club at Sydney University. An indication of the sort of results that can be achieved by focussing on max strength can be seen in the video, “Jerry Yanuyanutawa box-squatting 260kg”, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyaFpU_IZnQ.

  30. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 1:57 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Bruce Ross @ 1:55 pm:

    That is very interesting indeed.

  31. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:04 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Bruce Ross @ 1:55 pm:

    If I understand you correctly then, you say that Deans is taking the wrong option by focussing even less on the power training aspect?

    Regarding the theory of Nick, I would presume that both players would exert 100% power when pushing (not necessarily in scrums), therefore the strength reserve would be the same for both. Or did Nick say something about coaching the players to adapt?

  32. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:09 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:04 pm:

    Personally I think aerobic and anaerobic exercises both have their pro’s and cons. I suppose at international/pro level you can pick and choose your players to match what you want to do.

    but at a normal club level I would imagine that a bigger overall benefit would be to condition the players in a way that mimics the game itself. I.e. anaerobic conditioning, with particular interest on training the body to recover faster.

  33. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:17 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:09 pm:

    Exactly what I am trying to do with my guys. Training them for shorter periods but with higher intensity. Build up the max intesity phases with shorter and shorter rests.
    No long jogs – we are not training for a marathon!! Rather 30 to 50min with short sprints and rests/walks in between. Depending of course the condition of the players etc.

  34. attributor Bruce Ross says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:17 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:04 pm: “I would presume that both players would exert 100% power when pushing (not necessarily in scrums), therefore the strength reserve would be the same for both.”

    Not at all. In a simple lifting task, for example, you only recruit as many muscle fibres as are necessary for the particular task.

  35. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:19 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to JT @ 2:17 pm:

    I miss coaching…

  36. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:25 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Bruce Ross @ 2:17 pm:

    But take rucks & mauls, surely the guys will be putting 100% into it. Granted that in rucks it will be for a very short period of time, thereafter the player will have to be mobile in order to get to the next breakdown or become ball receiver.

    The otherside of the coin would be as ball carrier, the power trained player would obviously have strength to his advantage, meaning with ball in hand he will be trying to push 100% and longer in the contacts, whereas the endurance conditioned guy would go down faster in the contact thereby using less energy.

    I’m just not sold on the idea of having all the forwards trained in aerobic exercise, especially when coming up against a mobile team that moves the ball a lot.

  37. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:26 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 2:19 pm:

    So start again. I’m doing video analysis for the team this coming season and hen after that I am considering coaching the girls again. 8)

  38. attributor Bruce Ross says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:36 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:25 pm: “But take rucks & mauls, surely the guys will be putting 100% into it.”

    Rugby is very much an endurance sport, so it would be very unusual and unwise for a player to put 100% effort into a particular ruck or maul contest.

    You also seem to be assuming, Ollie, that strength and mobility are mutually exclusive. They are not.

  39. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:54 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Bruce Ross @ 2:36 pm:

    True, they are not mutually exclusive, but to train for high power means that you have to forfeit a bit on endurance and vice versa;

    Otherwise the conversation we would be having is about finding a balance between the 2. I.e. maximise both aerobic and anaerobic training in order to benefit both;

  40. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:56 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:54 pm:

    Shouldnt you actually split your training position specific to a large degree too however?

  41. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:57 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 2:56 pm:

    Yes, i would imagine so, but we are talking forwards in general here… I think.

  42. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 2:59 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:57 pm:

    Even so I believe roles are quite defined (obviously dependent on team specific game plans and plays) whether it be in first phase roles or general play.

  43. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:13 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 2:59 pm:

    True, but I am trying to find out what makes aerobic training better than anaerobic training for a pack player

  44. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:17 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:13 pm:

    Aaahh okay with you

  45. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:20 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:13 pm:

    I would suggest you get in touch with Philip Copeman on issues like that as-well.

  46. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:20 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 2:59 pm:

    I have a certain training for my tight 5, one for the loosies and centres and one for the rest of the backs.
    Fitness training overview IMO:
    Tight 5: short bursts of max intensity with longer rests in between. dropping for short sprints (20m) and contact to longer strength sessions to replicate scrums/mauls.
    Loosies: longer bursts with less rest in between to up the max aerobic fitness with bursts of power. Longer sprints (40 to 60m) with tackle/ruck session in the mix.
    Backs: Max intensity with longer sprints and longer rests – 40-60m sprints with jogs in the mix and then some contact sessions. To relpicate chase sprints and then jogging back into position and sprint again etc. etc.

    Pitty is only that I have the guys for 2 sessions a week so have to rely on giving them a session and hope/pray they do it the way I want in their free time. :oops:

  47. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:22 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to JT @ 3:20 pm:

    Replicating match intensity (in conditioning) is the only way to go mate, seems you are busy getting that down.

  48. Ollie_ Shark Attack Ollie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:23 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 3:20 pm:

    It’s just a passing interest. I don’t really subscribe to Philip’s viewpoints entirely

  49. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:24 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Morné @ 3:22 pm:

    Well you have it nailed in that short sentence :-)

    Replicating match intensity (in conditioning) is the only way to go mate, seems you are busy getting that down.

  50. Morné Morné says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 3:24 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:23 pm:

    I enjoy his views on conditioning specifically.

  51. Gysie Gysie says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 5:14 pm Reply to this comment

    Hello Gents
    now my nickname is “Gysie”.
    Formerly known as “HO” in this wonderful forum.
    Ciao!

  52. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 5th, 2010 at 5:21 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Gysie @ 5:14 pm:

    Hi Gysie ;-) How you doing?? Life treating you well in Italy? Did the SWC help Italian rugby like it did French rugby? France the youth singed up 30% more players than last year!

  53. Gysie Gysie says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 8:33 am Reply to this comment

    Hello great JT
    SWC? what does it mean??

  54. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 8:47 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Gysie @ 8:33 am:

    Soccer World Cup

  55. Oranje Orakel - BlackbeRRy is so 2011 WiLLem says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 8:55 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Gysie @ 5:14 pm:

    HoWzit Gysman!

    Long time

  56. manvanstaal manvanstaal says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 9:16 am Reply to this comment

    En die Wallabies kan maar net nie uit die moeilikheid uitbly nie. :noshake:

    Wallabies back Kurtley Beale has been fined A$5 000 ($4 200) by the Australian Rugby Union for urinating outside a Brisbane nightclub.

  57. Gysie Gysie says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 2:12 pm Reply to this comment

    Soccer World Cup, Thanks God, is going to end.
    I am just happy Bafana Bafana were sent home at once.
    I just hope Netherlands will win.
    Italian rugby is in the usual troubles: no depth in skills and tactics.
    Please is there anybody who can help me and let me know the reasons for Aplon, de Jongh, Ralepelle are in the Boks squad? Even Maku, if I am not wrong, was called recently.
    Why not Derick Kuun, Gary Botha (both Blou Bulle) or Adriaan Strauss from Vrystaat?

  58. Gysie Gysie says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 2:13 pm Reply to this comment

    Hi great WiLLem!
    I think our Vrystaat men are going to play a very interesting Curriebeker 2010…
    Are you well?

  59. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 2:14 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Gysie @ 2:12 pm:

    Strauss was/is injured, Gary Botha is over the hill and Kuun is a flanker!

  60. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 2:15 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Gysie @ 2:12 pm:

    on Aplon – not much else to pick from with all the injuries! He did have a very strong S14!
    On Juan – IMO better than Olivier!

  61. Gysie Gysie says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 5:29 pm Reply to this comment

    Kuun nowadays plays FLANK but he was a reknown very good HAKER until some time ago.
    Lambie (Sharks) could not be selected at HEELAGTER after such a positive S14 season?
    Of course my choice at No. 15 still remains Ruan Pienaar…

  62. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 5:57 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Gysie @ 5:29 pm:

    at least we finally agree on something!! Ruan should be FB!! it is in his genes!

  63. Boertjie Boertjie says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 7:51 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to JT @ 2:15 pm:

    On Juan – IMO better than Olivier!
    ====
    Just wait for it:
    Die ERP gaan homself
    gelyk vol skyt.

  64. JT_BOKBEFOK! JT says:
    July 6th, 2010 at 8:22 pm Reply to this comment

    Reply to Boertjie @ 7:51 pm:

    he at least has a step :whistling:

  65. DavidS Champion Supporter DavidS says:
    July 7th, 2010 at 7:41 am Reply to this comment

    Reply to Boertjie @ 7:51 pm:

    That’s only cos you don’t wear your glasses when you watch and judge him on the number of times you hear his name and of course you are so old youir short term memory is buggered so all you recall is the try he scored against the Waratahs…

    Not that he became Olivier’s b$&@tch in all games he has played against the Bulls

  66. DavidS Champion Supporter DavidS says:
    July 7th, 2010 at 7:43 am Reply to this comment

    ps.

    Boertjie do not project your incontinence onto me…

    I can still hold my crap in

    YOU are the one that needs to wear BEsures…

    :pot: :vuvu: