Leading without example

January 12, 2011
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Springbok rugby and South African rugby in general is coming to the end of an era, and it might be time to think about what the future holds.

2011 will see some of South African rugby’s most famous icons and hero’s retire from the game, or move abroad to close off their careers. For a country with the wealth of talent South Africa has, most people will not worry too much, but they should.

I read a recent publication by a New Zealand university doctor who argued in a 292 page document how New Zealand will fail in this year’s Rugby World Cup hosted in their own backyard. Needless to say it was not well received by his fellow countrymen but the basis of his argument was intriguing.

He argued how success in the Rugby World Cup depends mostly on leadership within the team, and how the absence of their iconic captain Richie McCaw or backline general Dan Carter through possible injury or some other catastrophe can be the difference in lifting the William Webb Ellis trophy, or not.

Apart from the Rugby World Cup, he also asks why there is such a massive void between players who are leaders, and those who follow and why not more players develop into leaders at professional level.

It is an argument which hits close to home for South Africans too.

John Smit, Victor Matfield, Juan Smith and Fourie du Preez will all most likely retire, or in Fourie’s case, move abroad. That is the core leadership group of the Springbok team and like New Zealand, I cannot see any natural or logical replacements for them.

Throughout the last 6 or 7 years, we have seen the importance of each of these individuals in the team, not only from the individual skills they bring to the setup, but how they are the glue that holds everything together. No team can hope to achieve success without these types of individuals, not the Springboks, and neither the All Blacks.

So where, and why, or how did we, and even New Zealand stop producing leaders of this ilk who are quite simply, indispensible to the game of rugby?

It is a question I have often pondered because as many of you will know from my previous columns, I value captaincy over and above insanely talented players, and Dr. David Harris, the author of the paper might have provided the answer I was looking for.

Players like McCaw, Carter, Smit, Matfield, Juan Smith, Du Preez and the likes started their rugby careers when professionalism was in its infancy. Things like rugby academies was still quite new where these guys, although not completely similar to the days of amateur rugby, came through the ‘ranks’ so to speak.

They started their senior careers, very much as juniors in an environment where there was a very distinct hierarchical structure in place where as juniors, they had to fight their way up the ranks to establish and even ‘prove’ themselves or earn the respect of their peers.

They came into an environment where they absorbed the knowledge of rugby icons like Josh Kronfeld, Andrew Mehrtens, Gary Teichman, Mark Andrews, Andre Venter, Joost van der Westhuizen and players of similar status all of whom formed part of the transition from amateur to professional rugby and who were brought up through the structures and traditions of the game in its amateur form, which included the camaraderie uniquely and exclusively experienced in club rugby.

This process of learning from players with different skills and experience in a position of power, authority and respect, equipped these players, and future leaders, with the tools necessary to one day deal with the dynamics involved in leading teams of their own.

Captaincy is more than just wearing an armband. It is the ability to lead from the front, to accept responsibility for each member of the team, to nurture each team member to perform to his potential, to resolve conflicts which will arise from individuals from different backgrounds and cultures and even languages, to plan, to strategise, motivate and pull a team through difficult times on the field, and even off it. He is a person who instigates and manage relationships between all team members and above else, he is respected as the father-figure of the team. He is not only a captain of his team, but the ambassador of the club, province, or country that team represents. In short, the team, and country, is judged on this one man or group of men.

Today, it is not strange to see a baby-face on the field representing a union, franchise or even country. The programs and structures that institutions like rugby academies provide fast-tracks this process and what was once odd, is now becoming the norm.

Players today skip the old-school process of being exposed to a hierarchical structures found in the processes of progressing through club to union level rugby by being immediately forced into an academy environment from school. From being seniors (in schools) they never become juniors again, they are exposed to , and supposed to learn, from individuals on equal levels as themselves who are not only the same age, but have the same levels of experience.

It is not that some of these players are not leaders, or capable of leading, they are just never exposed to the first-hand knowledge and mentorship which will help them develop into great leaders who can deal with the unique dynamics a team sport provides.

The formula for the magic glue that holds a team together never gets passed on. The individual becomes more important than the team, everything becomes I, not us. Pride takes a backseat, respect for the game, jersey and team mates becomes secondary, because if I am the highest paid rugby player of my country at age 22, I don’t need to listen to anyone.

Sounding a bit melodramatic?

I will challenge you to name a captain for each of our major franchises for 2012 that has, or shows the same potential, and will endure the longevity as a leader for their team some of the names above had or showed for their unions, and their country.

I expect very few nominations.

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  1. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    This is a question for every year, that always seems to be answered in some way or the other. For example, who were the leaders when JS was just stepping into top rugby? When they retired JS was an unknown just about.

    My take is that as long as you have some solid experience in the team anybody with leadership tendencies can stand on their shoulders and do the job well.

    Carter is not a leader per se, he is a playmaker first. the team falls apart when he is not there because the options and opportunities he gives are no longer there.

  2. avatar the cheetahs are pumas! says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    wp- andries bekker

    lions –

    bulls – derrick kuun

    cheetahs –

    sharks -

  3. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    William Webb Ellis trophy
    Come on, it’s time for everyone to get this right:


    Check the inscription on the cup.

  4. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    Schalk can slot in until these buffoons sort something out next year…

    Besides Snor will be gone and I’m sure the new coach will sort the succession plan… unless it’s AC or Chester or Sauls… and say hello to Luke…

  5. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    I think the key is going to be which youngsters are going to emerge at the provinces for captaincy… what’s that young U20 RWC captain’s name (big strong 8)… and where is he playing…

    I agree totally with the article…

  6. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    There will never be another captain like John Smit… with all the attributes…

  7. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 1:42 pm:

    I saw a piece by Fake White in which ha advises JS NOT to play RWC.

    Added that if he was the coach, JS would have been top of his list.

    Can’t figure that one, and he does not explain it.

  8. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 1:42 pm:

    I’m not sure the issue is with there not being another like him, as much as it is for the coach to be able to identify and nurture such a leader.

  9. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:20 pm:

    Leaders like Smit are born… he’s been like this his entire life no doubt…

  10. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 2:57 pm:

    Oh, I agree whole heartedly, but that leadership first has to find it’s way to a rugby field, and then be spotted, and then nurtured and then given the chance to flourish. Another story altogether.

  11. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:00 pm:

    For sure…

    Back to Morne’s 2012 question…

    WP- Schalk in his 3rd tenure (great 2010 he had for WP)

    As for the rest… haven’t seen nor know enough of the youngsters to comment…

  12. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:10 pm:

    I think Brussouw, Schalk, Bekker, Beast etc will create the shoulders to stand on. The Captain will come if the coach is any good at spotting and doesn’t let his own ego get in the way.(And please, no Snor chirps in that regard, it is just nice and peaceful today)

  13. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:18 pm:

    Definitely the ones I was thinking of…

    Not sure if Bekker can face the rigours on his frame… and whether Beast has the nouse (he has everything else)… Daniels is one for the Sharks… but again not sure how many times he’ll be starting and whether at 90kgs his game will extend past youthful exuberance…

    Where are the Mortlock’s in the RSA backs?

  14. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:35 pm:

    Bekker is a bit in the John Eales mould when it comes to physique, so he should be OK.

    Beast I think will be like an Os, not one to lead with words, just a solid force to back & steady the captain

    Mortlock? Have we ever had one in SA?

  15. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    Lions = Franco VD Merwe

    But the question is not who is the skipper but who is the leader.

    I totally disagree with Morne though.

    In all walks of life where there is a possible interaction between people you will eventually develop those who lead and those who follow.

    In a team setup you have different people who lead by different ways.

    So for instance you have those who lead by inspiration … the general whose men will follow him into hell.

    Cricket and soccer have been professional sports for decades but you still see inspirational players arise to take the mantle and do the leadership role thing. Shane Warne was a leader but skippered his side only a few times. Graham Smith leads with the jaw but he still leads with his flappermouth… but we all know Mark Boucher and Jacques Kallis have a big role to play in leadership.

    Same with say the team that was mentioned as not having a skipper…. the Lions… poor team but they are developing a culture of leadership in the side as one could see towards the end of last year.

    Franco VD Merwe is skipper who leads with his mouth and inspires.

    Janno Vermaak leads by control

    Elton Jantjes lead by instinct

    Cobus Grobbelaar by example

    These are just examples.

    What is happening is that we are looking for the inspiring people like the Graham Smiths and Dan Carters to show us leadership without realizing how important that leadership is onfield of players we never mention.

    As an example

    Bakkies Botha is never mentioned but even Matfield has mentioned how Bakkies has a calming effect on the team… that is leadership.

    Kuun skippers but he is not the only part of the leadership team… there are different leaders n the field.

    I tend to go along with Ollie but for different reasons.

    1. Professionalism and breeding leadership has nothing to do with each other… were that so (as in cash the only motivating factor) corporations would never have leaders and they produce a preponderance…

    2. Leaders step up in all social environments.

    * I agree on the “good player is not necessarily the best captain” scenario but it can happen sometimes that your best leader is your best player and sometimes you NEED that lead by example type players. The best example I think was 22 year old Graham Smith being our best batsman and then as captain scoring successive double centuries against the Poms a few years ago. McCaw is in the same mould. Lead by example.

  16. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Jacque Fourie is the Mortlock of SA

  17. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 3:39 pm:

    I agree, but you need a good Captain to guide the leaders and overall direction of the team. That is what JS does so well.

    Basically, the captain has to be a leader but the leader is not necessarily a captain. And a captain is worthless in rugby if he doesn’t have some good leaders to support him.

  18. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 3:42 pm:

    I don’t think Fourie is as versatile or has the same presence as Mortlock.

    Mortlock is one of the real greats of rugby, pity he was born an Aussie.

  19. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 3:42 pm:

    Yeah but he’s heading off soon too imo… and he’s never really been given a chance at captaincy…

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:39 pm:

    In Eales’ more than decade career… he was injured as much as Bekker has been in his short one…

  20. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:49 pm:

    Some tall guys can maintain their height… some cannot… I have two friends 6ft 6 and over that fall into the latter as well…

    Here’s hoping this is not the case with Bekker…

  21. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:49 pm:
    Hmm, hadn’t thought of that

  22. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    Who has kids going to school this year?


    It costs a fortune to get them into school!

    Mother of Jaysus!

    Stationery costs the same as the GDP of a small country!

  23. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    On the captaincy subject… interestingly MacQueen and co have assembled 14 former captains in their S15 squad… too many cooks?

    And off topic… Gareth Delve their star Welsh signing… stepped in on a potential abduction/domestic yesterday in Melbourne… and once attacked KO’d the guy… lol!

    Some dudes just don’t learn when faced with a super-fit 191cm 115kg specimen…

  24. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 3:56 pm:

    Hhehe… especially girls…

  25. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:46 pm:

    You see though that it’s not the presence we see that is important as the one that his team mates perceive…

    That is what’s important about what I am seeing.

    As an example for instance if you read SCW’s book on England 2003 he says that there were several leaders in the side who lead without anyone seeing.

    Mike Tindall for instance made the attack calls in spite of Johnny being on the field whilst Wilkinson controlled defence and possession.

    In forwards attack Richard Hill lead over Micheal Johnson in spite of the latter being skipper. The point is just that we should not look at Jacque Fourie and say “He does not lead like Mortlock and hence does not have the leadership capabilities of Mortlock” whereas his leadership style may be lowkey but as a leader his team mates respect him like Mortlock is respected.

    I hated the fool but Corne Krige was a low key style of skipper whilst Francois Pienaar was an overly showy type of leader… we should not judge leadership based on appearances.

    I understand where you are coming from and cursorily it makes sense but we should not compare skippers by “he was a good captain so everyone should do what he did”… leaders have different ways of leading. Those different styles do not make them poor leaders just different but equally good leaders.

    I’ll tell you for instance from cricket:

    Kepler Wessels with his iron dictatorship

    Hansie Cronje his clone

    Shaun Pollock with his “you’re all big boys who need to take responsibility” style

    Steve Waugh with his “Pigeon, Gillie, Warnie and I make the decisions”

    Graham Smith with his seniors committee of Kallis, Boucher, himself and at one point, Makaya Ntini and Shaun Pollock…

    And as our rugby has shown

    Leaders will pop up amazingly at strange places.

    Who would have called Juan Smith as a skipper and even “Afkop Hoender” Burger or even “All my daddy’s influence” Andries Bekker … BUT they have developed into leaders… whether natural or by nurture (I don’t think leaders need nurturing) does not matter. Nobody will have called that in the post Puke Twatson period… but there they came… a heady mix of older and younger players into the leadership breach.

    Remember we must CLEARLY differentiate between leaders and captains.

    Fourie Du Preez is the best example of the lot.

    Joost was backline leader of the Boks fullstop punt klaar no arguments ever.

    In 2003 it would have been 100% to ask “what the hell do we do after Joost” and people who thought that Niel De Kock of the time was a possible replacement are deluded (or living in the Cape… same thing) but lo and behold up steps Fourie Du Preez…

    Same last year

    Lo and behold

    Up steps Francois Hougaard… and that oke is 100% the natural successor of FDP left right and center… although I secretly believe Janno Vermaak would have been an outstanding understudy.

    The point there is that I agree with you that leaders will step up.


    1. Don’t judge leadership ability on appearances.

    2. Leaders step up.

  26. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:58 pm:

    Oh ja

    They discover fashion and brands far quicker than boys…

  27. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Suddenly they want Loxion clothes and Soviet shoes like the Bratz…


    Woolies tekkies are quite good

    Do they have a Soviet badge on


    Then they’re not good enough…

    All of 8 years old…

  28. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 4:18 pm:

    Boys will have a pencil, pen, rubber, ruler and case for them… perhaps Ben10 ones at worst…

    Young ladies it’s a different story and yours are still young… lol!

  29. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 4:14 pm:

    Actually we are on the same page, my post 10 was actually referring to the leadership of the captain.

    The only difference in our views maybe is that I think a young captain needs to be nurtured, not in his leadership abilities per se but more inline of what he is expected to do with them.

    Throw a young captain in with old leaders and he might just disappear.

  30. avatar Ollie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 4:27 pm:

    My 2,5 year old daughter already wants her Dora stuff, my 5 year old son doesn’t really care what he wears as long as we don’t get the moerin if he makes it dirty. :lol:

  31. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 3:56 pm:

    Don’t worry: Free schooling is on its way.
    Or don’t you believe Showerhead Zuma?

    Saw last night: almost 20,000 schools don’t have adequate basic equipment like chairs and desks.

    Of 24,000 public schools, 19,000 need more desks, 21,000 have no laboratories, 19,000 no libraries.

    EC worst: need 935,000 chairs, 661,000 desks.

    Maar elke lui, vet en onnosel bliksem ry met ‘n BMW en vlieg die wêreld vol agter kak aan.

  32. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 4:28 pm:

    Throw a young captain in with old leaders and he might just disappear.
    Yeah right.
    Need apprenticeship.

  33. avatar Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 7:26 pm

    I’m a little surprised by this article.
    Have the Boks not been nurturing their next captain for about 6 years now?
    His name starts with a C and he also plays hooker.

    I had to scan this thread several times to make sure his name is not even mentioned.

    What gives, Morne?
    Have you decided he was a dud, but do not want to admit it out load?

  34. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    Reply to Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes @ 7:26 pm:

    Good question.

  35. avatar cab says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Rallapelle has’nt really grown since u19, where he was very good, which is sort of ok for hooker, but not ideal at test level if you look at the other hooker around, they might not be big, but they are physically imposing and strong dynamic players.

    The biggest problem tho is that he’s been besotted with injuries and has not been a regular 1st choice selection at the Bulls, he should have moved to be a regular started at one of the S14 provinces and to have become battle hardened and make the step up.

    However, there was one game in particular, when he came on for Smit against teh Frogs earlier this year, where he was fantastic. He needs to play more regularly at S14 level before we know how good he is. Def a case of preferential treatment, i.e. transformation, but i think he has alot of potential.

  36. avatar Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    Reply to cab @ 8:14 pm:

    I can agree with all that and add that he should have been playing CC at the Bulls during his uninjured seasons instead of warming the Bok bench.

    Victim of transformation. Career nurtured to a standstill.

  37. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 8:52 pm

    Reply to Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes @ 8:21 pm:

    “Career nurtured to a standstill”

    Geez that is so brilliant you should frame it!

  38. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 4:29 pm:

    At seven and five they want Barbie, Bratz, Disney Princesses


    Clothes must be pink or purple

    Sneakers must be like Bratz wear… we used to call them euphemistically stated tekkies “favoured by black people” when I was small… I think those Converse tekkies is what they mean but in any case Bratz and Barbie Passion for fashion wear those so guess what they want?

  39. avatar DavidS says:
    January 12th, 2011 at 8:55 pm


    Okay I see what you mean

    Mizundastood (in the words of the artist Pink)

  40. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:42 am

    Reply to cab @ 8:14 pm:

    His VC quality rugby aside… no too mention he comes across as being thick as two planks cannot interview well, has no rapport with team mates… spouting ‘god is great’ is not enough to make a captain… and now he is banned for doping… but everyone knows he is a typical RSA window dressing puppet… hence no-one has bothered to even mention it up to now…

  41. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:51 am

    So what does everyone make of the Bok’s new sponsor… namely ABSA?

  42. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 2:18 am

    Interesting stuff leading into their first game together this weekend…


    For the record… how much is a Stormers jumper?

    $170 for a Rebels one seems a bit steep…

  43. avatar Morné says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 8:19 am

    Reply to Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes @ 8:21 pm:

    Well you said it yourself and there is no real point in mentioning it.

    Ralepelle was identified as the future leader, of which you well know and obviously what you referred to I agreed then.

    He was never nurtured into that role, as your quote of the year quite clearly states.

  44. avatar Morné says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 8:20 am

    The article in fact deals with this very fact, and I ask (so does the good doctor from NZ) why leaders are not nurtured anymore.

  45. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 8:44 am

    I’m still not totally sold on the nurturing of leaders thing…

    It’s to me a very feminine soft thing to say leaders need to be nurtured… like babies… and I cannot agree less. You don’t raise a leader by nurture, but by nature.

    REAL leaders are not babied into leadership instead they are forged, burned, tempered like steel by adversity and by natural attrition those who are not good enough leaders will fall by the wayside.

    I love to use the military example but solely because the military and especially wartime is a place where leadership is sharply focused and there is a Darwinian process of elimination of poor leaders and advancement of good ones… but the good ones become good ones because of their experiences that turn them into good leaders.

    The corporate example is a similarly good one. Over there managers and supervisors are consistently tested and their leadership produces the best but the re are problems there about identifying leaders.

    In 1937 Stalin completed the last of a set of “purges” (aka genocidal murders) of the Red Army’s officers. He tended to replace them with political yes men lackeys.

    The result told in 1941 when the tough professional Germans invaded Red Army soldiers poorly lead by poor leaders appointed due to their political acumen were slaughtered. Literally millions of Russian soldiers paid with their lives in the “forge” of the battlefield.


    That from that forge a set of outstanding leaders tempered forged and created by a Darwinian process of survival of the best emerged.

    These outstanding generals like Zhukov, Rhokosofsky, Vasilefsky, Vatutin, Konev.

    Luckily for Stalin HE was a good leader so he was able to identify where his errors were in appointing politicians and buddies into key military positions and he quickly rid himself of fools like Timoshenko who was an old drinking buddy so that he was able to use these outstanding military tacticians and strategists to first stop and then defeat the Germans.

    The same happens in rugby.

    Not every Onder Nege Kaptein is ever going to captain the Bokke or, more accurately play a leadership role in a Bok side as a “senior player” and it’s by a process of Darwinian elimination of the weak that a tempered powerful charismatic experienced leader emerges… because there’s no such thing as a “newly created” leader.

    I know in the cases of Teichman, Pienaar, Krige and Smit they were players who captained every single side they ever played in… and that shows that they were not players who were nurtured by caring teachers and coaches to lead… instead they were thrown in to sink or swim precisely because the teachers and coaches knew or could see that they had boys / men here who WOULD swim and make every one else around them also swim for them… because they had leadership qualities.

    One does not nurture leadership… you forge it.

  46. avatar Morné says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 8:51 am

    Reply to DavidS @ 8:44 am:

    It is still nurturing leaders.

    It is just a girly word which is why you don’t like it but means the same thing.

  47. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 9:16 am

    Reply to Morné @ 8:19 am:

    Only the media has kept the ‘Ralepelle as a future leader’ flame alight all these years… not his VC coach, not his CC coach and well he cannot make the Super team…

    All the ‘nurturing’ in the world cannot make him a better rugby player…

  48. avatar Morné says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 9:22 am

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 9:16 am:

    He captained his senior team in school, he captained the junior Boks successfully, and was justifiably identified as a future leader. What happened subsequently, well that is another matter altogether and part of what I was writing about – fast tracking baby faces…

  49. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Reply to Morné @ 8:51 am:

    I said you’d left your brain in Namibia

    a. To form (metal, for example) by heating in a forge and beating or hammering into shape.


    2. The act of bringing up.


    You can do the searches yourself but in each case I have used the intended definitions I wanted to impart and I think the one you intended.

    There is a difference in succeeding on the field as a skipper and being taught by Mommy that you are “a goooooood boy” at something… and then trying to put it into practice.

    I tell my oldest girl she’s good at running even if she’s not but I know she’ll never be an Olympic star… that cannot be taught. She either survives in our society and becomes [insert whatever her wish] or she fails
    because whatever reason. GOOD leadership is created by adversity not nurture.
    As you can see the meanings are quite different.

  50. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Reply to Morné @ 9:22 am:

    He failed the darwin test like many other Under 9 Kapteins…

    The furnace fire was too hot and he didn’t survive…

    Compare for instance with Graham Smith and Hansie Cronje who both succeeded as captains despite being appointed at a very young age.

    It’s brutal but pretty much natural selection.

    I know Boertjie will have some smarmy remark about our president (and I will agree with him but it will detract from the point I’m making), but the bottom line is NOT every kid can grow up and be president

  51. avatar Ollie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 12:13 pm:

    And who says the nurturer can not allow forging as part of the nurturing programme

  52. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    This seems appropriate

    Liberalism is an essentially feminine, submissive world view. Perhaps a better adjective than feminine is infantile. It is the world view of men who do not have the moral toughness, the spiritual strength to stand up and do single combat with life, who cannot adjust to the reality that the world is not a huge, pink-and-blue, padded nursery in which the lions lie down with the lambs and everyone lives happily ever after.

    Struggle is the father of all things. It is not by the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself above the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle. If you do not fight, life will never be won.

    Or this one

    “The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Liberalism is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, liberalism would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.”

  53. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 12:23 pm:

    It’s the difference between good parenting and responsible parenting

    You can look up the difference… there is one.

    In essence

    Every single psychological examination ever done on the subject of children indicates that independence and adversity creates stronger willed people than nurturing…

  54. avatar Ollie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 12:30 pm:

    I am well aware of the difference, albeit debatable what exactly “good” means in that context.

    But we’re splitting hairs now, the basic gist is that a youngster showing signs of being a good leader and captain for a rugby teams needs a coach who recognizes that and helps the best he can for the lad to become the best he can. Whatever term you want to call it is immaterial.

  55. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 12:28 pm:
    imo the macho man will cry like a baby all too easily, in fact they are often the weakest men cos they are used to physical domination, its like the bully, once he’s beaten he is finished. they have no real courage. the liberal option is invariably the harder one to take and it takes far more courage, as opposed to the nazis and nats who at best merely followed order (ho ho if u think anyone believes that) and at worst were mere cowards happy to maintain the status quo.

  56. avatar Ollie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    uhoh, here we go again :shake:

  57. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    certain woman actually have far more courage than men, and its often the most liberal of them, that have the most courage. they simply dont have any fear and cannot be intimidated and its hilarious to see them reduce the groot he-man to a blubbering wreck.

  58. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 1:11 pm:
    yeah sorry, i’m out.

  59. avatar Ollie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Reply to cab @ 1:13 pm:

    I fear that it will be too late :lol:

  60. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    Reply to cab @ 1:07 pm:

    Not really

    cab is beyond help.

    I don’t debate with someone who picks fights for the sake of fighting.

  61. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 1:22 pm:

    Oh and Ollie

    I have no quarrels with you.

    I agree with most of what you said.

  62. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    Reply to cab @ 1:11 pm:

    Don’t let anyone make you feel unwelcome, because you are always welcome.
    Helen Zille, Helen Suzman, Helen of Troye all made men the hell in and are great examples of what you are saying.

  63. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    Good old Kevin Pietersen…

    “”Kevin Pietersen Queensland Flood Relief Appeal

    I am auctioning my Ashes shirt and bat as used in this year’s Ashes series, shown in the picture. I will personalise the bat to the winning bidder. I will also include 2 tickets to the last One Day International game in Perth on the 6th February, and the bidder will come and watch the team train the day before. I will also provide 2 economy return airline tickets from anywhere in the World to Perth and 2 night’s accommodation at a hotel in Perth for the 5th and 6th February.

    Please dig deep to raise as much as possible.

    Bids currently on 9.5k pounds on ebay…

  64. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    And Harold Mitchell (Rebels chairman) has pledged $100k out of his own pocket…

  65. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 2:03 pm:

    Just read a piece on the floods in Toowoomba.
    Horific is not the word.

  66. avatar Morné says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    Got this on email, it is by far the funniest shit I have read in a while… Its in Afrikaans so keep up.

    I have many friends who has this shit too!

    (I tried to edit most of the really nasty words out, apologies if I missed one…)

    Power Balance het julle vir ‘n p**s gevat.

    Wil jy dalk ‘n ponzi of pyramid scheme afpull? Check, baie mense het dit al reggekry, maar hulle is nog elke keer uitgevang omdat daar altyd iemand is wat snuf in die neus gekry het, of beeskak ‘n myl ver kan ruik.

    Wat jy nodig het is heavy fokken gullible mense. Mense wat Power Balance armbandjies dra…

    Die Power Balance hologram armbandjie werk min of meer so: Jy gee iemand (kom ons noem hom sommer ‘n skelm) R500 vir ‘n stuk kak wat jy om jou arm dra en jy glo vas dat jou p**l langer gaanraak, jou tiete fermer gaan span of jou selluliet teen jou bene gaan afloop as jy weer ‘n stort vang.

    Jy is heel moontlik met ‘n dom sales pitch gevang in ‘n shopping centre. Een of ander jafel het jou armpies laat uitstrek en die een arm afgedruk en toe p**s jy neer. Toe sit hy ‘n armbandjie om en toe hy dit weer doen, toe bly jy regop. Fokken awesome.

    Probeer miskien die volgende: gaan verkoop bandjies wat p**sklappe vermy. Maak iemand voor jou staan, bene teen mekaar. Klap hom van sy voete af. Sit nou ‘n haar rekkie om sy arm. Swaai weer ‘n appel. Wat? Die ou het gekoes? Jirre, hierdie rekkies is die f**ken shit!

    Jy raak half spyt dat jy R500 spandeer het op ‘n armbandjie, maar jy het klaar face verloor, so jy sal aanhou stry dat dit werk omdat jy soos ‘n p**s voel. Especially omdat jy nie bewyse het nie.

    “Nee, maar ek voel vreeslik goed vandat ek die Power Blance dra. Regtig. My voorvel lyk ook beter!” Genuine? Jy het nie dalk per ongeluk Special K getand vir brekvis en ‘n gemaklike onderbroek aangetrek toevallig vanoggend nie? Of miskien net minder gedrink of zol gerook nie?

    Power Balance werk amper soos ‘n placebo – jy kan dit soos placebo boudpille in jou hol opdruk en fokol sal gebeur. Die beste van alles is dat daar ook nie fake armbandjies is nie. Alles is fokken fakes.

    Die sogenaamde ripoffs ook. Of jy nou R500 of R150 daarvoor betaal. Soos daai fokken koper armbande in die 90′s wat glo die toxins uit jou lyf trek. “Check, ek het gisteraand gedrink. Nou kyk hier om my arm. Sien jy daai groen? Dis die armband wat die toxins uit my lyf trek!”. Ummh, jou arm is groen omdat koper afgee en omdat jy nie gebad het nie, jou fokken stink hippie!

    Die beste kans dat die armband jou lyf gaan balanseer is wanneer jy hom gaan vas staple aan daai stukkie vleis tussen jou ballas en jou hol sodat hy mooi simmetries in die middel hang – daar by jou “tjommie” of jou “goos”.

    Hang nou ‘n baksteen van die ding af en staan stil. Jy check? Jy fokken balance. -handeklap- Mooi man! Wag nou so drie dae vir die Power Balance om jou wond te heel. As jou hol afval van infeksie, dan werk die donnerse ding nie regtig nie.

    Relatiewe bekende fools wat die stuk kak om hulle arms dra sluit mense in soos:

    F1 driver driver Rubens Barrichello wat die Formule 1 hierdie jaar danksy Power Balance gewen het. O nee wag, ek praat kak. Dit was Sebastian Vettel wat gewen het. Met skill, jy check?

    Akteur Russell Crowe wat danksy sy Power Balance nie sy aksent kon regkry vir Robin Hood nie. Hy moes seker die Ierse Power Balance gekoop het met direct injection, want hy klink soos ‘n Ier met ‘n spraakgebrek.

    The Biggest Loser in Australie se trainer Shannan Ponton. Biggest loser? Need I say more?

    Dit laat my ook wonder oor Lee-Anne Liebenberg en haar tjommies wat R75000 se champagne gesuip het by Caprice in die Kaap en claim dat hulle nie dronk was nie. Hulle het almal seker fokken awesome Power Balance bandjies gedra en vergeeet om dit af te haal.

    Aanhou stry, sal die Power Balance disipels. Daar sal onteenseglik bewys word (indien nie al klaar nie) dat duisende mense op planeet aarde vir ‘n p**s gevat is, en dit vir ‘n armbandjie. In fact, ek dink Australia is klaar besig om mense te refund. Raak ontslae van jou vriende wat hierdie kak hou, maar los een ou met ‘n bandjie in die vriendekring. Dis altyd handy om iemand onnosel te misbruik om jou bier aan te dra of jou kar te was. Of as dit ‘n chick is, om heeltyd haar boobs vir almal te flash…

    Ongelukkig sal daar altyd mense wees wat val vir sulke kak, maar ek is nou besig om my tyd hier te mors. Ek moet gaan uitgedroogde, wit hondekak soek wat ek kan goud spray om as time-travelling amulets te verkoop. R450. Wie is in?

    Ek sal vir jou een uithou, hoor …

  67. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 2:13 pm:

    Toowoomba one of the many burbs in a similar situation…

  68. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    Reply to Morné @ 2:45 pm:

    Hehe… so much better than the original from Aus…

  69. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 2:54 pm:

    On the level of the long worded tattoo Bekker has inscribed from under his armpit down his side:

    ♦I will conquer what has not been conquered.
    ♦I will believe what others doubt.
    ♦I have trained my mind and my body will follow.
    ♦No one will deny me.
    ♦No one will defy me.
    ♦No one will tell me who I am or what I can be.
    ♦Belief will change my world.
    ♦History will remember me.
    ♦I will define myself.
    ♦I will write my own pages.

    And then a repeat, maybe because there was space left or he couldn’t think of another stupidity:
    ♦No one will tell me what I can or cannot be.


    I see Dale Steyn also has the tread marks of a wet Firestone tyre down his left arm.


  70. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 3:16 pm:
    he left one out
    - I will pomp other dames.

  71. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Very old one:

    Sailor full of tattoos walks down Adderley Street.

    Capie: “En wiet vir djou mette nat Argus geklap?”

  72. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Reply to cab @ 3:20 pm:

    I was thinking on the same lines.

  73. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 3:21 pm:
    lol, janee ek dink jou :whatever: is presies reg

  74. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 1:37 pm:

    Vir elke een wat jy kan noem sal ek jou 10 mans kan noem…

    Helen of Troye was presies die teenoorgestelde van wat jy wil laat sy klink en Helen Zille… ja wel… en Helen Suzman het niks gelei nie… nie eers haar eie party toe sy die se enigste parlementere verteenwoordiger was nie..

    Nice een…

    Miskien maar oor gaan na Ma Maggie toe? of Hillary Clinton of Madelain Albright? Ek weet nie… noem hulle maar op ek se mos tien mans vir elke vrou…

  75. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 7:26 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 5:42 pm:
    its very simple, think of most modern households and ask:
    wie dra die broek?

  76. avatar Duiwel says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 8:49 pm

    Cab,did you manage to at least
    pomp a frog while you were here?

  77. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    lol, yeah sort of, but a saffa frog.
    bliksem speaking of padda, some of those shots u keep posting are going to get the boys hopping about.

  78. avatar DavidS says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    Reply to cab @ 7:26 pm:

    Maybe in your house my friend but we’re not all softie wannabe emigres to darkest Africa who flee the shores the minute adversity shows its ugly head…

    Ask yourself this

    Which countries have the most dysfuntional households…

    Then enjoy the STFU

    Geez but you’re no challenge…

  79. avatar Duiwel says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    Oom dawie,wipe your mouth,
    you’re frothing again

  80. avatar Duiwel says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 9:14 pm

    A saffa frog?!
    Whatever were you thinking,
    you want the whole”oui!oui!oui!encore!
    not half of it!

  81. avatar Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 9:06 pm:

    Those in which a man will murder a raped wife or daughter as a matter of “honor”.

    Cannot think of something much more dysfunctional than that.

  82. avatar cab says:
    January 13th, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 9:06 pm:
    lol, i think the truth is Dawie, that in your house what your wife says goes, and i laugh very much at the thought of that. you poor bugger, i have a brother like that.

    Reply to Duiwel @ 9:14 pm:
    haha, yeah i’m not a master like you, but the saffa girl actually happened to be a very nice tannie actually.

  83. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 14th, 2011 at 10:05 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 12:16 pm:

    I know Boertjie will have some smarmy remark about our president
    This one fell into my lap today:

    Some people have the vocabulary to sum up things in a way you can understand them. This quote came from the Czech Republic. Someone over there has it figured out. We have a lot of work to do.

    “The danger to South Africa is not Jacob Zuma but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

    “It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of a Zuma presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president.

    “The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Zuma, who is a mere symptom of what ails South Africa.Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.

    “The Republic can survive a Jacob Zuma, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their President.



  84. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 1:06 am


    A convicted rapist who has been on the run for 11 years was found in New Zealand and extradited back to South Africa on Friday, police said.
    Swiss national Hans Joachim Klaar, 47, arrived at OR Tambo International Airport aboard a Qantas flight on Friday afternoon, deputy national police Commissioner Godfrey Lebeya said in Johannesburg.

    Finish en Klaar with SA rapist in NZ

    Klaar en gedaan met SA verkragter in NS

    China’s Ding Junhui overpowered former world champion Graeme Dott 6-2 to advance into the semi-finals of the Masters tournament at Wembley on Thursday.


    Still don’t beat

  85. avatar cab says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 1:24 am



  86. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 4:45 am

    Reply to Boertjie @ 1:06 am:

    You should see the destruction that is a land twice the of the United Kingdom declared a disaster zone here in Queensland… but… you should see the total banding together of scores of thousands of neighbours, countrymen and volunteers working around the clock with each other, starting the multi-year clean-up and restoration… it’s times like these I am so relieved my kids will grow up in a country like this…

    Compare this the Haiti and New Orleans floods… there’s no raping, mugging and looting (only 10 cases of looting and they’re arrested!

  87. avatar cab says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 11:57 am

    the australians have got a shedload of dosh and can cope fairly easily, what about the poor brazillians, now thats a proper disaster?

  88. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    Reply to cab @ 11:57 am:

    Was it Bush that asked how many brazilians are there in a dollar?

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 4:45 am:

    Jip, the difference when a country is filled with a lot of decent people, even if they do talk funny.


  89. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 12:47 pm:

    even if they do talk funny – and drink XXXX because they cannot market it as PISS.

  90. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 1:30 pm


    82 held for man’s murder

    More than 80 people have been arrested and charged with the murder of a man in Bizana, say Eastern Cape police.

    Assaulted to death, like they do with live bulls.

  91. avatar DavidS says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    Reply to Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes @ 9:16 pm:

    What like in the Middle east…

    You mean like the 7% of the world population?

    Like how Western Europeans are 10% of the world population… and even there in places like Italy, Portugal and Spain and Greece it works the other way…

    No challenge


    Reply to cab @ 9:28 pm:

    I don’t have secret fantasies of getting a wife who dresses up as a school marm and spanks your botty like you do cab.

    Or maybe Marm bossed yer da around in your house now you transpose your inadequacies onto me…

    But hey keep dreaming

    Three girls do rule my life but my wife is not one of them.

    As I said… you’re no challenge…

    Your knowledge of my personal life is as good as your knowledge of …well… anything… as in zero… none.. zilch… nada… but then again they never educated you rooinekke all that well at Parkrand Primary did they…

  92. avatar DavidS says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 3:45 pm


    Richest countries by GDP

    10. Brazil

    14. Australia



    http://www.aneki.com/richest.html (9 vs nowhere on Top 10)

    Enjoy the STFU

    You certainly seem to be

    You are getting such a lot of it these days from me… or maybe in your dreams you wank thinking I’m a strict school marm…

    I’d prefer you not play those S&M game fabtasies of yours using me…

  93. avatar DavidS says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 10:05 pm:

    Vyf jaar terug het ons gelag oor Fikile Mbalula se uitlatings as ANCYL hoof

    Nou is hy minister van sport…

    So ja dis die drolle wat Zuma verkies het wat ons die gevolge gaan laat dra van domheid…

  94. avatar DavidS says:
    January 15th, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 1:30 pm:

    Ek onthou hoe die media geskreeu het oor “common purpose” regs doktrine in die apartheid era toe die regering groepe wat necklace moorde gepleeg het alamal van moord aangekla het en almal het daaroor tekere gegaan…

    Sonder om te besef dat dit amper so oud soos die Romeine is en in elke Westerse land en baie nie Westerse lande toegepas word…

  95. avatar Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes says:
    January 16th, 2011 at 1:25 am

    Reply to DavidS @ 3:31 pm:

    That post is nonsensical.

    non·sen·si·cal (nn-sns-kl)
    1. Lacking intelligible meaning: a nonsensical jumble of words.
    2. Foolish; absurd: nonsensical ideas.

  96. avatar Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes says:
    January 16th, 2011 at 1:26 am

    Reply to DavidS @ 3:45 pm:

    That post displays a complete lack of insight.

  97. avatar Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes says:
    January 16th, 2011 at 2:13 am

    Just to humor myself I’ll explain.

    In the first of the two posts, concerning dysfunctional families, population sizes are completely irrelevant.

    In the second, concerning the relative wealth of countries, population sizes are crucial.
    It’s called GDP per capita.
    According to your reference, Australia is listed at 26 and Brazil is not even among the top 100.

  98. avatar DavidS says:
    January 16th, 2011 at 10:59 am

    Reply to Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes @ 1:25 am:

    Not really

    I treated a nonsensical post of yours with the sarcastic contempt it deserved.

    You cherry picked and I basically provided you with a reply that duly dealt with your incomplete answer as judged from your Eurocentric value system with no thought for reality. Your current attempt to belittle my post does not take cognizance of your nonsensical post that elicited a belittling response that has clearly stricken the correct place. I suggest you study Foceau before you make generalizations about me being nonsensical.

    Nice try loser.

    Reply to Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes @ 2:13 am:

    No it does not

    The initial post was “poor Brazil”

    Not “poor Brazilians”

    Your post displaying a lack of understanding of the essence of selecting the correct way to debate.

    In the same way as cab

    Enjoy the STFU

  99. avatar Boertjie says:
    January 16th, 2011 at 11:02 am


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