Black EP power is a mirage

February 2, 2012
Posted by

How long will we still be fed the mirage that EP is the cradle of black rugby
and deserves to play Super Rugby?

Article by Boertjie

I’m asking this question because the facts on the table points in a different direction – that the Kings and Estern Province are not even competitive in the South African set-up. To make any impression they will have to import players of note, and they will more or less all be white or a slightly darker shade of white.

If the idea of transformation is the improvement of black rugby interests, the rugby hierarchy are missing the point.

The Kings were born from an effort to give a lift black players, and we were told how black players in the province will be getting their fair share.

What really happened is that the team degenerated into a second class team of white players.

On top of it Cheeky Watson and Alan Solomons contracted overseas players lik Ross Kennedy and Clint Newland ahead of black talent.

Last year the Kings failed to win the Vodacom Series and the B-section of the Currie Cup.

In the final of the CC B-section they were thrashed 43-12 by Boland.

On that day there were 4 blacks in the Kings’ team and one on the bench, whilst Boland played with 10 black players in the group of 22.

Prior to this Parks represented the Kings in the National Club Championships with not one black player in their team.

Surely this cannot be the case in the cradle of black rugby. And as one joker said: If the Kings can play Super 15, then Boland must be allowed to play the Four Nations Rugby Championship.

I vaguely remember another EP team whas invited, a black club whose name has slipped me now, and was beaten wholesomely at the same tournament.

It’s with credentials like these tat Saru now hopes for a backdoor entry into the
S15/S16 or, if that fails like it surely will, relegating one of the current five
franchises out of Super Rugby.

There may be a little backdoor open, if partitipation in the S15 can be stretched to mean that the Kings will be allowed to play some friendlies against teams with a bye that weekend.

The current S15 set-up is signed, sealed and sold for up to 2015 and it seems very unlikely that a 16th team will be added. It’s an SA dilemma, has very little if any merit and I can’t see the Kiwis and the Wobblies falling over backward to accommodate South Africa in its hour of political need.

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93 Comments

  1. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 2:48 am

    Look I pretty much agree with everything above but it must be said that without a doubt a Super Franchise in the region would a> get more youngsters of hue interested in the game b> retain more players of hue in the region…

    However the long list of current (EP born) players (many white) constantly brought to the fore by anyone punting the Kings inclusion is vastly inaccurate… I’d guess 80% of them only improved their game and were refined into great players through the Academy’s (like Sharks) that spotted them and signed them on… this is not going to change in the professional era… I rarely hear the Cheetahs using this argument nor do I see those players ever going back to the Cheetahs…

    I have no doubt in my mind that there are guys like Smal and Gerber and Solomans et al that have only rugby on my mind… just as I have no doubt spivs like Watson are using the race aspect and ties with ANC officials for monetary gain first and foremost… that in mind and the constant making this an issue about ‘transformation’ first constantly using race as a catalyst is always going to sour the national and international community…

    No team should be gifted a Super birth skipping an entire level of rugby in RSA… at the expense of a team that is in the top 5 in the CC… simple…

    And I very much doubt NZAR are going to stand for it…

  2. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 3:03 am

    20 years of thieving, in-fighting, maladministration, total destruction of a once powerful union and now they just want to gifted a birth (using political slant) and run before they can walk!

    Baby steps would have shown far more integrity… working towards a CC birth (only narrowly missed) would have been a start… being competitive in the CC the next… and all the while in the off season of the CC they’ve been gifted a position in the IRB Nations Cup (once used by the Emerging Boks) which they have now snubbed… could have played more ‘friendlies’ against NZAR Super Unions… same in the NH… and been included in the American league or even the Pacific Nations Cup if they were savvy… so by the time the CC came round they could have arguably blown some of the Bokless big 5 off the park and actually earned the right to an inclusion!

    This could all have been funded by the multiple BEE companies from the region… where the fark is Vulisango Holdings (the Watson run billion dollar dubious mining outfit)… surely if this was all about sincere ‘transformation’ these ‘freedom fighters now turned BEE conglomerate) would be the first to jump and fund these tours and contracting?

    Nope this ‘quick-fix’ political wrangling ‘entitlement’ element has me in no doubt, money is the key to all of this from certain folk… and in a few years they will have long retired or will be sitting on the board as ‘non-operational’ directors…

  3. avatar DavidS says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 8:15 am

    Good points all round.

    Just a note that Super 14 inclusion has done buggerall for the Cheetahs – there has not been a flood of suddenly interested young black players trying out for rugby in the Free State.

    The same happened in Pretoria and Johannesburg and Cape Town and Durban.

    Simple inclusion in S14 is not some panacea to awaken latent talent bursting at the seams with young blacks just waiting for the opportunity.

    That is kak.

    Those young black players are primarily hard working middle and upper class kids in private schools who get spotted by Bulls and Sharks Academies and taken away and eventually do become stars because of dedication and hard work, and that is because they are professionals… not because there is Super 14 rugby or not in SEC.

    Boertjie is 100% right.

  4. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 9:55 am

    it is an indisputable fact that the SEC is the cradle of black rugby. now if you want to mischievously mix two issues – three unions in the SEC who get no benefit from Super Rugby in terms of money & development and the history/pedigree of black players that have come from the SEC – then go ahead. i’m certain you will find a receptive audience, the two stooges that have commented above are evidence enough.

    well done BOERTJIE. :roll:

  5. avatar DavidS says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Cooley

    What Boertjie has shown is that the Western Cape and not the Eastern Cape is the home of black rugby in South Africa.

    Thanks for playing.

    What I showed is that the “benefit” of Super 15 broadcast money has done buggerall to develop black rugby in Pretoria, Bloemfontein, Durban or Johannesburg so why will SEC be any different? And given the clear proof it is obvious that it will not make any difference… none at all.

  6. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    Last year I read a book – Morne may
    remember the title and author – and
    posted an article here.

    The essence of that piece was that the
    two biggest EC schools, Dale and
    Queens, have become 80%+ black.

    They went very far down the list of
    rugby schools – basically because
    the black pupils had an enormous
    drawback caused by their traditional
    diets in growing up.

    To me it’s another example that there
    are no quick fixes: You have to start
    at the bottom.

    Pity I can’t find that article. Blame
    it on that German Onkel with the name
    of Alzheimer.
    :wink:

  7. avatar Oranje Orakel says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 1:23 pm:

    Yip vergEEt Alz!

  8. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 11:05 am: Boertjie has showed nothing!

    Boland are partners with WP to form the Stormers, they get a substantial cut of the money the Stormers franchise generates which goes a long way to paying the salaries of Danwell Demas, Bolla Conradie, Elgar Watts. resources is what brings the likes of Demas from Italy back to Boland, don’t delude yourself by thinking they’re there because they were developed there. playing for Boland opens up a chance to shoot for a Stormers super rugby contract, just now alister coetzee has roped bolla back into the fold meaning bolla’s pay increases to above R29 500.

    familiarise yourself with the history of rugby in the eastern cape before spouting rubbish and bean counting black players in one isolated game.!

  9. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Boland’s success come from their
    academy.
    EP has none.
    They don’t need one: the politicians
    will provide them with a shortcut.
    Playing mostly white players, like in
    the past, at a higher level.

  10. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 2:50 pm: FYI EP Kings have an academy, headed by Robbie Kempson!
    Danie Gerber is also involved as a talent scout.

    get your facts straight!

  11. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 2:50 pm: hte Southern Kings is not a “black” team. all unions affiliated with SARU are charged with transforming rugby, most are resistant and with characters like you out there it’s plain to see why. :shitfan:

  12. avatar Ollie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 1:23 pm:

    Have you had a look where Queens, Dale and Selborne are now on the schools Top 20?

  13. avatar Ollie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:52 pm:

    They all ended in the top 10 for 2011

  14. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 2:45 pm:

    Danwel Demas is a poor example… Free State were practically took the transfer fee and popped him on the plan… he got his arse handed to him in the Magners league and was sent packing…

    That left no Super teams, no NH teams and hence back to Boland…

  15. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 2:56 pm:

    Hmmm. Interesting. Gerber recently
    chatted to me.
    “EP rugby is f*cked. One big useless mess,”
    or words to that effect.

    Thanks for informing me on the academy.
    Pity we don’t really see results on the
    scoreboard – unlike with Boland.

    Also, where do we draw the line between
    coloured and black? The ANC really wants
    African blacks in the teams.

    One of the advantages of RuggaWorld is
    that we post threads to get opinions,
    feedback, corrections – in a civilised way.

    Fact is I can’t see the Kings performing at
    a higher level, not even with available
    white or coloured imports.

    PS. You don’t have to be so vicious. If
    that’s your style: Join Keo.

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:52 pm:

    Well, that’s good. I quoted from memory
    from the book by, I think, Shirley Somebody,
    in which the state of those schools were
    lamented.
    Pity I can’t find that thread.

  16. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 4:25 pm:

    By Jove, I found it!

    Author’s name is Liz McGregor.
    Here is an extract from Touch, Pause, Engage – a
    book really worth reading about the “insides” of
    unions like the Bulls, Stormers:

    “I put my question to three coaches: “If Dale u.13 beat Bishops 54-0, why don’t they go on and dominate rugby like Bishops, Affies or Paarl Boys’ High?

    “Simple, they said. They don’t get enough to eat.

    ‘Their daily diet is bread, three times a day. Their families are poor and they basically just eat starch: bread and some samp and beans, They get hardly any of the protein needed to build muscle, particularly at this crucial adolescent growth phase.

    “When they play the Afrikaans team, the guys are 10 kg heavier, which is big in rugby.

    “The boys do an hour gym and two hours of rugby and then go home to a supper of starch, so it doesn’t assist their growth.

    ” ‘We have great talent and flair, but to be successful, you’ve go to be ranked in the top 20 schools every year. If they had nutritional support for our boys, we could do that,’ ” one of the coaches summed it up.”

    FULL THREAD
    http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/09/08/why-is-rugby-transformation-failing/

  17. avatar Ollie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 4:25 pm:

    One of the advantages of RuggaWorld is
    that we post threads to get opinions,
    feedback, corrections – in a civilised way.

    PS. You don’t have to be so vicious. If
    that’s your style: Join Keo.

    Uuuhhh, you might want to spread the word about that to some other vociferous people on the site

  18. avatar Ollie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 4:35 pm:

    I remember that thread, and despite the shortcomings the 3 schools did well last year.

    I also remember a thread about the youngsters just hanging up their boots after school because of the lack of opportunity in the region etc.

    The challenge is how to get the talent in the EC through to top level rugby. Ignoring the region by telling them to sort themselves out is not the answer. Giving the S15 on a plate isn’t either.

  19. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 4:50 pm: THANK YOU ollie, he finds the courage to speak about being civil when he gets taken on but all his buddies here do as they like.

    i give as much as i get boertjie and if the debate gets robust, so be it and for you to direct me to another website just reeks of arrogance quite frankly.

  20. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 4:54 pm:

    Giving the S15 on a plate isn’t either.
    ——–
    :yeahright:
    What is needed is a 3 year plan IMO.
    And lots of goodwill from all parties.

    Uuuhhh, you might want to spread the word about that to some other vociferous people on the site
    ———
    Some of it is meant as banter, stirring.
    But yes, I think the guilty party/parties
    should take note.

    Maybe those schools did something on the
    diet lines.
    :wink:
    In the case of Boland I believe it’s all-out:
    Those youngsters are earmarked and live in
    a house.
    Should do a solid thread about the set-up,
    and a list of the players produced. It’s
    quite a long one.

  21. avatar Morné says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    I said this about 6 months ago, the biggest mistake was for the EC to market themselves as ‘the cradle of black rugby’ – they have enough talent, enough resources to become a cradle of rugby fullstop.

    They will forever be judged on the amount of ‘black superstars’ they produce and that is no way to judge the region because every other single franchise or region should be judged on the same principles then.

    This region can make it, they must just play the game.

  22. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    What I’m dead against is this attitude
    of entitlement.
    You’re not entitled to anything more
    than what you have earned – along the
    way of hard work and discipline, even
    when you are historically disadvantaged.

  23. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    Former Bok guru helps netball

    Sherylle Calder, the world-renowned specialist in visual performance skills, is currently helping the South African netball team.

  24. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 8:52 pm: typical blinkered south african thinking yet again.

    there are three unions in thr south eastern cape who currently do not enjoy any of the largesse of super rugby and SARU as the custodians of rugby in this country have the responsibility to assist then get improve.

    ep was mismanaged for long periodof time and fell on hard times the same way the glru has messed up the lions, they lost all their games in 2010 yet nothing happened to them instead everyone says SARU should help the lions get back on their feet.

    why are the “entitled” to help when other unions should fend for themselves. no unions are more equal than others.

    for close to a decade you couldn’t pay people enough to go to ellis park to watch lions vs highlanders so why/how did they keep playing super rugby?

  25. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 8:52 pm: do you agree that the south african franchise that finishes last in the conference clearly didn’t work hard, lacked discipline & dedication and for that reason they are not deserving of that spot next season?

    unless this “entitlement” is something to be lamented when people of hue are see to be demanding inclusion/

  26. avatar Timeo says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 2:45 pm:

    I get your point regarding the fact that all teams except the 3 EC unions have some SR affiliation, but the question is how much do they get from it?

    Is it more than the considerable monies SARU has injected into the EC teams in recent years?

    Griquas play SR, Boland gets to use some fringe WP players. What about the rest of the unions? It seems to me that the big teams hire talent from where-ever they may find it. A Kings player has as much chance landing a Bulls contract as a Pumas or Griffens or even a WP player.

    If all SARU monies are equal, then surely the Kings being based in a larger market ought to be the best of the rest on the SA scene.

    If SARU monies are not equal as you content, then please educate us with some numbers.

  27. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 10:33 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 10:18 pm:

    “Demand” and “entitlement” are synomyms
    to me and usually comes from people who
    feel the world owes them.
    It does not, that’s why God invented
    boot laces.

    What’s happening in the EC is putting the cart
    in front of the horse, no matter how you look
    at it.

    If the Kings can beat the SA team that
    finished last in the conference so be
    it: Promote them.

    If the Kings can get their house in order
    (and I think it’s one hell of a job given
    the state of Border and to a lesser extent
    SWD) fine.

    But what happened to the millions Saru had
    alreay spent to bail them out – something
    you probably know better than me?

    In the end I suppose Saru is to be blamed
    for everything. They now want promotion
    for a franchise they’ve been neglecting,
    at least according to you.

  28. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 10:55 pm

    Not in any way scientific, just interesting.
    A lot of these voters probably don’t even
    know who the 5 SA franchises are.

    BUT
    Poll on News24
    Question: The best way to solve the Southern Kings entry poser from next year in Super Rugby is …

    14% — Persuade SANZAR to have 16 teams, no conferences, and go back to a round-robin format
    15% — If there can still only be five SA sides, relegate the worst-faring SA side this season
    3% — Judge the demotion on results over a five-year period, including the 2012 season
    5% — Go back to a Cats-type mixed franchise between the Cheetahs and Lions
    11% — Create a unified Highveld side between the Bulls and Lions
    52% — Rethink the whole Kings participation, it’s going to make things so messy.

    PS. I voted with the 52%.

  29. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:00 pm

    Reply to Timeo @ 10:22 pm: read the following and see what happens when the SR cash dries up.

    http://www.thenewage.co.za/41824-10-53-Golden_Lions_can_lose_even_more

    the leopards were about to institute legal proceedings on the lions, why do you think that is if SR money is negligible? why do you think SARU is stepping in?

    everyone is dead set on the kings not joining super rugby yet they are deafeningly quiet about the screwed up lions, WHY?

    are the lions entitled to mess up all they want without repercussions?
    :roll:

  30. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:10 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 10:33 pm: well let me remind you, all unions are affiliates of SARU and should be treated equitably, something you seem to be conditioned to to get.

  31. avatar Timeo says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:17 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 11:00 pm:

    Myself will not shed a tear if the GLRU is shut-down. They have only themselves to blame and it will solve some problems for SARU.

    But what I read from your link is also that The Leopards have been getting nothing from their SR affiliation. Yet, playing in a smaller market they have been better than any team from PE recently.
    Thus my point about the Kings are that they should perform relative to the size of their market before we can take them seriously. Port Elisabeth is much is larger than Potchefstroom or Witbank (whatever these places are named now).

  32. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 11:10 pm:

    Equally?
    I thought it was pro rata:
    The teams that generate the most
    income benefit?

    So how much does the EC owe Saru
    by now?

  33. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    Reply to Timeo @ 11:17 pm: ‘recently’? when last did the kings play the leopards?

    the leopards played swd in the promotion/ relegation playoffs.

  34. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:38 pm

    Reply to Timeo @ 11:17 pm:

    As for the GLRU I don’t agree with you.

    SA rugby needs that team to be strong and it
    has a very proud history.
    I hope they can dig themselves out of that
    deep pit.

    The Lions made one hell of a turnaround in
    the S15 last year and they have a great and
    emotional support base, as I gathered from a previous
    URL that was posted here linking us to their
    website.

    De Klerk says he inherited a legacy going
    back 7 years. He needs all the help to
    get back on track.

    SA rugby also needs the EC to be strong -
    before it’s awarded promotion.

  35. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:40 pm

    Reply to Timeo @ 11:17 pm: did you ignore or not comprehend the part that said the Royal Bafokeng company were pulling out because of the rubbish being done by the lions? um…google the royal bafokeng and check their worth :roll:

    the lions have messed up and don’t deserve to be in super rugby, in terms of play and in the boardroom the are failures but some here are conviniently oblivious to all of that for some odd reason.

    i’m going to comb through this site and look for article pertaining to all the lions’ shenanigans and see if i pick up an critcism from the usual suspects

  36. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 11:31 pm:

    the leopards played swd in the promotion/ relegation playoffs
    ——-
    Why?
    Because the SWD ended higher on the log
    than EP.
    Didn’t EP lose twice against the SWD?

    And exactly where does the SWD fit into
    Cheeky’s plans with the Kings, or don’t they?

  37. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    ja-ja,henalo!

  38. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:49 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 11:40 pm:

    Good luck.
    And while you’re at it: Also look
    at the threads about money spent on
    the shenanigans of EP and Border.

    And when you have time left, tell us your
    plan for getting the Kings up to scratch
    for the S15, let alone the degraded CC.
    It will be very interesting.

  39. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:50 pm

    Reply to Duiwel @ 11:47 pm:

    Hoezit Boet?
    Fokkinwarm in die Kaap – die deel
    wat nog nie afgebrand het nie.

  40. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    Naand Oudste!

  41. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    Dit sneeu woes hier,piskoud,sien die son maybe,
    maar lekker

  42. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 11:38 pm: ag, poor de klerk, he inherited a legacy of maladministration that was just ignored because the lions are not expected to be accountable because for some reason the likes of boertjie this SA rugby needs the lions.

    ffs what is with the double standards? :shock:

    i’m done with you.

  43. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    “regrets,i have a few
    but then again,
    far too few to mention.”

  44. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:56 pm

    CooleyHigh
    ja-ja thanks
    miss you already.

    Hoe lyk dinge jou kant Oudste

  45. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 2nd, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    the lions would have no currie cup if it was not for robert gumede’s money that they took on the promise of an equity agreement which they knew they weren’t going to sign!

    without guma money there would be no john mitchell,carlos spencer, kiwi conditioning coach wsyne taylor,no mapoe – gumede paid the R1,2 million for the player, he chartered private jets the team to & fro bloem etc.

    but oh no de klerk deserves help from everyone,please

  46. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:01 am

    Reply to Boertjie @ 11:42 pm: get your facts straight, stefan pretorius is the Southern Kings CEO and not cheeky watson.

  47. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:02 am

    Reply to Duiwel @ 11:56 pm: do you have any contribution to make or only kakpraat?

  48. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:04 am

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 11:52 pm:

    As Duiwel says: We miss you already.
    Come back when the block on your shoulder
    is cut down to chip size and when you
    have a sound and workable solution for
    the Kings.

  49. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:06 am

    Reply to Duiwel @ 11:56 pm:

    Ek probeer opgewonde raak oor die l-a-n-g
    seisoen wat voorlê.

  50. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:06 am

    Annerdag Oudste,
    een te veel c-virs.

  51. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:07 am

    Calm down,china,have a curry.

  52. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:08 am

    Bwahahahahaha,whonaaidwhonaido!

  53. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:14 am

    Reply to Duiwel @ 12:08 am:

    :D

    :cheers:

    Môre is nog ‘n dag.

  54. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:16 am

    Reply to Boertjie @ 12:04 am: typical foolish response.

    Morne great site buddy, your boertjie is a joy.

  55. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 2:45 am

    Reply to Boertjie @ 8:55 pm:

    I hope she’s donning the skirt and Dunlop volleys!

  56. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 2:56 am

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 10:13 pm:

    Fair points… however!

    “for close to a decade you couldn’t pay people enough to go to ellis park to watch lions vs highlanders so why/how did they keep playing super rugby?”

    Quite ‘simply’ because there was no other Currie Cup team (outside the big 4) bar perhaps Griqua’s challenging them… they remained a top 5 team in RSA and are now CC champs whilst the Kings have not managed to even make it into the league!

    Get it?

    No offence mate but you’re a bit of a pussy for not posting in your Keo nic…

  57. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 3:14 am

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 11:58 pm:

    “the lions would have no currie cup if it was not for robert gumede’s money that they took on the promise of an equity agreement which they knew they weren’t going to sign!”

    “without guma money there would be no john mitchell,carlos spencer, kiwi conditioning coach wsyne taylor,no mapoe –”

    Well I’d have to disagree…

    Carlos moved to the Lions in Jan 2010 and Mitchell was appointed CC coach for the 2010 Currie Cup… long before the spiv Gumede group were around…

    They moved up one place to 5th and into line with the Super Rugby teams…

    2011 CC premiership was more about having retained the same team for a year through Super season and there being a huge amount of Bok’s missing being a Rugby World Cup year… zero to do with Gumede money…

    Mapoe… please mate… he’s done fokal since being at the Cheetahs and 7′s… Butch was the ‘big’ signing with true African style private jets and red carpets… how many games did he play in the CC?

    The performing Lions were all youngsters in the system from the previous year and Lions stalwarts… zero to do with Gumede money…

  58. avatar Timeo says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 7:00 am

    Reply to Boertjie @ 11:38 pm:

    Ten CCs in over a 100 years of history, something to be proud of?

    Not.

    It’s simple really. The handful of clubs that constitute the union disband it and affiliate with the Bulls. Nothing is really lost. Gauteng has one team and a SR slot opens up. The 100 or so fans that you piss off will find another team to be passionate about.

  59. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 7:33 am

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 2:56 am: what nic i use where is none of your business. i can be morne here and be pissant elsewhere and you’d think i’m a pussy.

    f.o.

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:14 am: who paid the salaries of those players when in 2010 the glru went to absa for an extension on their overdraft and it was rejected, huh?

    who signed surety for the extension of that overdraft.

    guma got the glru R90 million worth of sponsorship with mtn. the cellphone company would’ve never touched the lions if gumede wasn’t there, fact!

    de klerk knows this which is why he is not saying he will turn the union around but boasting that altmann allers will spend to keep them afloat!

  60. avatar Morné says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 11:57 am

    I thought cooley made some good points here, sorry i missed the whole debate.

  61. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 7:33 am:

    Who cares about their finances mate… you said…

    “for close to a decade you couldn’t pay people enough to go to ellis park to watch lions vs highlanders so why/how did they keep playing super rugby?”

    And I answered..

    “Quite ‘simply’ because there was no other Currie Cup team (outside the big 4) bar perhaps Griqua’s challenging them… they remained a top 5 team in RSA and are now CC champs whilst the Kings have not managed to even make it into the league!”

    If the Lions fold… the so be it in my books… Kings still do not deserve anything until they can be at least as competitive as the Kwas…

  62. avatar CooleyHigh says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 12:14 pm: oh my goodness :roll: what do you think lures all the players discarded by the “big” franchises to kimberley, better lifestyle?

    no bryce, it is the opportunity to play Super Rugby and because the Griquas are franchise partners with the Cheetahs, those players have a shot at the big time!

    players like bjorn basson, jonathan makoena, marnitz boshoff, naas olivier etc.

    if you don’t care that the lions have been allowed to act loke a vaccum cleaner for all the money generated by SARU from super rugby then shut up!

    since when has the currie cup been a yardstick for super rugby performance? the cheetahs won it with rassie and haven’t managed a finish better than 10th in ages.

  63. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 12:14 pm:

    ag nee man – now I sort of agree with you :?

    My take on all this BS: I am still for the HC model – you have to compete in the CC and the top 5 teams in the CC QUALIFY for the S15 the next season!
    This way the Sponsors have something to look forward to and if a team like Kwas can qualify and get the big money sponsors then they will grow and this will be good for rugby in SA same goes for EP etc. but 1st qualify for the CC and then qualify for the S15 etc.
    This Franchise system is BS IMO and should be the same for Boertjie because it reeks of entitlement :whistling:

  64. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Reply to JT_BOKBEFOK! @ 12:52 pm:

    Can’t see it as entitlement.
    Big 5 always finish Top 5 in the CC.
    Add Kwas.
    Two bottom feeders play relegation against
    the Top Two in B-Section.
    To me this spells merit.

  65. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 1:29 pm:

    forced merit – what do the smaller unions like Kwas, EP, Boland and SWD have to offer big money sponsors?
    Also no chance of them to EVER get anywhere near the S15 in the current format – it is as if someone stole their boot laces :soek:

  66. avatar Ollie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    Reply to JT_BOKBEFOK! @ 1:51 pm:

    Never mind the fact that a huge geographical location in the name of the EC has no nearby Franchise to affiliate to. Sponsors are not interested in spending big money on a maybe;

  67. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 2:34 pm:

    how’s training going? Today we have a chilly -14°C and Monday night training will be about the same… Thinking about moving the training session to the pub :beer:

  68. avatar Ollie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    We trained on Tuesday night in about -4°C, cancelled last night with -12°. A lot of players in exams or off skiing this week so will resume next week again. All matches cancelled this weekend, fields are like ridged cement at the moment.

    Contact work and tackling down to a minimum

  69. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 3:55 pm:

    I am doing some fitness stuff – tonight 1000m climb to a hut & prize = :beer:
    :mrgreen:

  70. avatar Ollie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Reply to JT_BOKBEFOK! @ 4:07 pm:

    sounds good.

    Toboggan down?

  71. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Reply to Ollie @ 4:15 pm:

    If he drinks enough he can come
    down unaccompanied. Just keep the
    feet in front.
    :weed:

  72. avatar namboer says:
    February 3rd, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Ek reken nou nogal nie ek is vociferous nie, maar smaak my jy, CooleyHigh, is ‘n d005.
    You use only ‘facts’ that suit your argument in a way that makes you come across as very irritable, insulting and demeaning as you go long.
    Tot siens, ek mis jou ook al klaar. : bigfinger:

    Reply to Boertjie @ 12:06 am: Stem, kan ook nog nie sê ek hop teen die dak van opgewondenheid en afwagting nie.

  73. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 4th, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Reply to namboer @ 5:37 pm:

    Sorry boet but who would not use facts to support their argument!?
    :Dawie:

  74. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 4:04 am

    Reply to JT_BOKBEFOK! @ 9:26 am:

    Yeah I’d have to agree… albeit there is quite some lack of unblinkered logic in there…

    Transy is a champion of the Kings and good on him…

  75. avatar Timeo says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    “fact!” : A somewhat emotional exclamation placed behind a highly speculative assertion in order to lend support to the aforementioned assertion.

    eg.
    “…. the cellphone company would’ve never touched the lions if gumede wasn’t there, fact!”

  76. avatar DavidS says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    Reply to CooleyHigh @ 12:50 pm:

    Oh nonsense…

    By the same token then the Valke, Pumas, Boland, Leopards and Griffons should be attracting players because of the chance to play for the Bulls, Cheetahs and Lions S 15 respectively yet that is not happening.

    The SEC screwed themselves.

    In 2001 they sold their rights to host Super Rugby matches and their franchise partnership stake in the “Coastal Sharks” to the Sharks.

    You screw yourself… you take the punishment.

    There is a fact I bet you’d like to conveniently cover up and forget. Hard capitalism beats emotional airy fairy socio-political claptrap every day.

  77. avatar DavidS says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Somewhat like his lawdship the great black hope Mistuh Ohbammy hisself…

    All freedom and hope and airy fairy nonsense till the capitalists put the cash down…

    And he now also wears a WWIL blue and white bracelet on his right wrist when it comes to Palestinian-Israeli questions…

    “Too big to fail” indeed….

    Like Greece

  78. avatar Timeo says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Reply to namboer @ 5:37 pm:

    You got it all backwards.

    D005 is good, beautiful and desired by most of us most of the time. My own experiences with d005 has been nothing but positive.

    To paraphrase?
    I have experience with d005, d005 is a friend of mine and I’ll tell you, CooleyHigh is no d005.
    :-)

  79. avatar DavidS says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Reply to Timeo @ 6:16 pm:

    Hahahahahahahahah!!!!!

    Poor Dan Quale

    He never lived that down…

  80. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    Reply to DavidS @ 6:50 pm:

    Insisting that you spell potato with
    an extra “e”?

  81. avatar DavidS says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Somehow still became VP…

    Imagine something happened to George Bush Snr?

  82. avatar namboer says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Reply to JT_BOKBEFOK! @ 9:26 am: Oho, JT, too much of the Tirolean malt too soon…maar toemaar, as ek in die bitter koue moes loop bergklim die anneragmôre sal ek ook maar vroeg en baie gevát het!! :twisted: :P
    To answer your question – please note that I had the word fact in inverted commas, indicating it to be ‘fact’ only in the mind of the issuer. And thanks Timeo @ 4:23 pm – that’s exactly what I meant.

    But, Timeo @ 6:16 pm (not that I’d be the best judge), keeping I mind the phrase “Daai d005 spyker ek nie eers met ‘n ander man se **** nie!” – I believe there are grounds where an encounter with a certain type of d005 would be less than favorable. It was exactly this type I had in mind when stating my ‘fact’, not being vociferous though I had not elaborated in such detail…

    Seems I might need to take a more vociferocious approach in future so my ‘facts’ correlate better to my arguments…
    :mrgreen: :jester: :whistling:

  83. avatar namboer says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Anyways, back to rugby.

    This from SS on Bulls vs Kings match this weekend:
    “The first scrum of the match only came in the 54th minute with referee Stuart Berry setting only four scrums in total.”

    1ste Skrum eers ná halftyd en net 4 in totaal – ongelooflik! Bulle blykbaar heel tevrede met die ref. Must say I find it strange that so little scrums were set – it being a warmup game with the Bulls’ 2nd stringers and all.
    Het enigiemand gekyk, sou graag verdere insig hieroor wou kry?

  84. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Reply to namboer @ 10:29 am:

    he is not doing anything different to what most of the guys on here do when they spew out their “facts” to support their argument for or against a team/player or coach!

    Does his argument make him a D005 to you because you do not agree with it or is it the method :whistling:

    IMO the Kings do NOT deserve to be in the S15 but then again I would like to see a qualifying system in place (promotion/relegation) with the CC as the yardstick! For example the best 4 placed teams in the S15 keep there spots, the 5th placed Saffa team play a promotion/relegation game against the NEXT best CC team NOT in the S15 for example Kwas!

  85. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Reply to namboer @ 10:35 am:

    was there only kicking or was the handling that good?

  86. avatar namboer says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    Reply to JT_BOKBEFOK! @ 10:57 am: That’s what I don’t know and would like to find out. Anyone there to shed some light on the subject?

  87. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    Reply to namboer @ 11:26 am:

    Hier is ‘n yl verslaggie voor my:

    “Al twee spanne was erg verroes en het baie strafskoppe afgestaan.

    “Bulls het 13 van hul 16 punte in die eerste 15 minute
    behaal.

    “Daar was net ongeveer 4000 toeskouers en baie het
    gebrom dat ‘n kaartjie R70 kos.”

    Dit in die nuwe bakermat van
    “swart” rugby. Hulle sal maar
    moet dink aan busse. T-hemde
    en ‘n gratis Coke en worsrol.
    :twisted:

  88. avatar Boertjie says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    Reply to JT_BOKBEFOK! @ 12:52 pm:

    :agree:
    But then you first have to QUALIFY
    for the CC – otherwise it’s a case
    of entitlement.
    I know it’s difficult. Most sponsors
    wants guarantees (of a place in the
    CC or S15) before they part with
    their money.
    EP tried for CC promotion, but fell
    dismally short last year.
    Much like Natal’s struggle in the 80′s.

    Is the answer that Saru makes the Kings
    a very special project?

  89. avatar JT_BOKBEFOK! says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 12:45 pm:

    I agree – EP must first get promotion to the CC and prove they can compete there with the likes of Kwas, Leopards and Pumas before even thinking of going to the S15.

    I would have a system as follows: The Province qualifies for the S15 by there achievement in the CC and afterwards only the last placed SA team has to compete with the next best to stay in the S15.
    How will that work with players from outside the province for example the Kwas players at the Cheetahs? IMO they can LOAN players not involved in the S15 this way the other provinces get compensation and when they fight for the promotion/relegation the CC teams (players contracted to that province) will fight it out.

    This means that the only team in the past few seasons that would have had a shot at the S15 would have been the Griquas! They deserve a spot – not EP.

  90. avatar namboer says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    Reply to Boertjie @ 12:38 pm: I see, so reken daar was heelparty lynstane. SS gepraat van Wilhelm Steenkamp, CJ Stander and Van Velze wat paar lynstaanballe afgevat het. Nogsteeds vir my baie snaaks dat daar net 4 skrums was, dis darem vrek min!

  91. avatar Duiwel says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Timeo says:
    February 5th, 2012 at 6:16 pm To paraphrase?

    I have experience with d005, d005 is a friend of mine and I’ll tell you, CooleyHigh is no d005.

    Classic.:mrgreen:

  92. avatar DavidS says:
    February 6th, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    Reply to namboer @ 10:29 am: So you are referring to the kind D005 that you find on an old Mombassa dockyard whore where she sprays Impulse straight into her panties to stop the stench from getting to overpowering for the wharf rats and keeps wet wipes on her so she can wipe the green jelly discharge leaking out away before she gets to the job so to speak…

  93. avatar bryce_in_oz says:
    February 7th, 2012 at 1:33 am

    Reply to DavidS @ 9:00 pm:

    Siestog!

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