Kings & SARU in Mexican stand-off


The Southern Kings announced their reduced, 35-man squad for their Super Rugby campaign which still contains 5 foreign players.

The tug-of-war between the Kings and SARU on the number of foreign based players allowed for the franchise has been going since 2012.

The Kings, who only has a 1-year guaranteed deal for participation in Super Rugby (from where a promotion/relegation match will determine the line up for 2014) has argued that in order for them to be competitive SA Rugby needs to make a concession to allow them more foreign players than the current maximum of two allowed per franchise.

SA Rugby in turn has stood by the standard protocol which applies to all franchises which has now seemingly resulted in a Mexican stand-off between the Kings and the governing body.

By announcing their 35-man squad containing 5 foreign based players, the Kings have sent a clear message to SARU that they are not about to budge and that the call is now firmly in SARU’s court.

Should SARU decide not to accept the Kings squad things could get really ugly for both parties a mere two weeks out before the South African conference kicks off.

Now, we wait with bated breath on SARU’s response…

Southern Kings Super Rugby 35 player squad

Forwards Backs
Schalk Ferrreira Shaun Venter
Jaco Engels Johan Herbst
Hannes Franklin Nicolas Vergallo
Virgile Lacombe Demetri Catrakillis
Bandise Maku George Whitehead
Edgar Marutlulle Andries Strauss
Kevin Buys Hadleigh Parkes
Grant Kemp Ronnie Cooke
Steven Sykes Waylon Murray
David Bullbring Michael Killian
Darron Nell Sergeal Petersen
Rynier Bernardo Marcello Sampson
Daniel Adongo Siyanda Grey
Wimpie van der Walt SP Marais
Mpho Mbiyozo Elric van Vuuren
Tomas Leonardi
Cornell du Preez
Devin Oosthuizen
Luke Watson (Captain)
Jacques Engelbrecht

Kings Statement on squad and 5 foreign players

Following the announcement of the wider squad of 35 players earlier today, there have been a number of media queries relating to the fact that all five foreign players are still listed in the squad.

Please note the following, to be attributed to Eastern Province Rugby President, Cheeky Watson.

The squad announced today is the wider squad that has been requested by SANZAR, and which had to be submitted to them ahead of the official start of the season, in line with their tournament rules and regulations.

This squad could be reduced further in due course.

Facebook Comments


  1. Fuckit guys…

    If that is a Super Rugby squad maybe we should let them have the five foreigners…

    They’re gonna need more than five foreign players to be competitive…

    They’re going to need a life support ICU at every game…

    The only player in that side who is of any value/talent is probably Bandise Maku…

    The rest are hazbeens and nevawazzes… to quote a certain comedian

  2. Kings can consider the fight won.
    Saru is gutless, especially with the
    ANC breathing down its neck and
    dictating terms.

    So where is all the skilled blacks
    praying for a chance to play?
    Or was it just Watson propaganda?

  3. Fkn pse!

    Dis nou Cheeky en kie.

    Hallo manne, lank nie gesien nie.

    Die enigste “skilled” man daar is Cheeky homself. Maar hy moet ‘n wonderwerk wees. Ek het nog nooit ‘n kkkkkhhhhhhont wat Xhosa praat ontmoet nie.

  4. Interesting to see Ronnie Cooke back. Has anyone been following him in France/Italy or wherever he went after a season or two with the CheeTahs way back when?
    Also surprised to see Waylon Murray and Micheal Killian there, never knew they were involved with the Kings.
    Notable absences in the backline are scrumhalves Falie Oelschig and Danie Faasen.

    And then is this Schalk Ferreira the same one originally from WP? Prop, not particularly big, same neck vertebrae infusement op that Schalk Burger had and almost forced to retire from rugby twice or so due to that? Don’t get me wrong, I kinda liked the bloke but not too sure that’s your answer at prop…


  5. Let them have Cake !

    ps why is there only 1 author on the other site ?

  6. Morne

    Are you counting Maku (from Pretoria originally) and Marutlulle (from Potchefstroom) and Murray (from Durban) and Adongo (from Kenya/Pretoria) amongst those nine…

    Want to try again?

    Thought so.

    ONLY Siyanda Grey and Mpho Mboyizo are indigenous African players from the so-called cradle of black rugby…

    The others are all imports…

    Cynically two are from Joburg…

  7. Reply to DavidS @ 11:27 am:

    The Kings became a Superrugby franchise 5 months ago. That is certainly not enough time to
    identify and develop enough indigenous African players to represent a significant part of the squad? Let alone getting them ready and at an acceptable Supperrugby level.

    This argument is 3 to 5 years premature if you think about it (which they wont have because of the chance of being relegated). The circumstances of their inclusion have made it impossible for them to focus on anything else but survival.

    Now that they have Supperrugby status it will become much easier for them to keep players like Siya Kholisi, Lwazi Mvovu, the Nduganes and Bjorn Basson in the region. I am sure there would have been many more had the focus on rugby development in the Eastern Cape started years ago. Which talented player will stay in a region if they won’t have the chance to play Superrugby? This only changed 5 months ago.

    Some people chose to walk around with blinkers when it comes to the Kings issue.

  8. Reply to Ollie @ 12:17 pm: I do understand their point of view though. I also used to dislike the Kings concept and still have no time for a guy like Cheeky Watson. What happened with the Lions was unfair and SARU needs to be held accountable for what happen to both the Kings and the Lions because of the poor way they handled everything.

  9. Reply to Vetgesmeerde Blits @ 12:05 pm:

    I’m not so sure… every one of those players left as youngsters for far more professional academy’s like the Sharks… where there is far more than just rugby on the agenda…

    What does EP have in that regard?

    That said the above side is far better than last week… it in fact has as many Super Caps as the young Brumbie’s Jake revolutionised last season… we’ll see how the results correlate…

  10. Reply to Vetgesmeerde Blits @ 1:00 pm:

    I also understand where they are coming from, I just don’t condone the reasoning.

    Although, I do like the Kings concept, I don’t like the way it was and is being implemented. It seems that SARU has gone for the “please all the people all the time” type approach and, as it normally does with said approach, it has backfired with nobody being happy at all.

    On one side, I dislike Cheeky and his scanivving political take, but on the other hand I enjoy that he has thrown down the gauntlet on how much preparation time and the length of time they have to embed themselves in the S15. Wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him though.

  11. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 1:06 pm:

    Bryce, I think you would have to realistically look at a few years of S15 competition before the Kings could put out an 80% homegrown team that sits mid S15 table.

    The really good players will still try for the established academies until the Kings are assured of continous S15. Then take the players that would be poached in anycase and the numbers of homegrown talent will always climb slowly

  12. Reply to Ollie @ 1:20 pm:

    For sure… I’ve never been one for the old ‘80% home-grown’ team thing in Super Rugby… it’s a pro game… but I (like most)… expected their CC team to at the very minimum in the top half of the CC… water under the bridge…

    My biggest bug-bear is Spivvy Watson in there for many reasons… and the most recent his continual of his long-standing ex-communication of SWD and more to the point (Ciskie and Transkei) Border… unforgivable!

  13. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 1:06 pm: Yes, I agree, they did leave as youngsters. But that is my point, EP and Border couldn’t offer them anything other than Vodacom Cup and 1st division rugby, of course they would leave.

    EP can offer much more than just rugby. For starters The Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University is situated in PE (they have a Varsity cup team there which is getting better every year and even managed to beat the then defending champions Ikeys last year).

    In fact, if you go to Durban and don’t make the Sharks junior squads the UKN in the the lowly 2nd division of Varsity Cup is one of your only real alternatives to get exposure.

    I do agree however that the Kings will have to get a decent academy like the Sharks make them an attractive destination for young players leaving school. The Kings have an academy under Rob Kempson’s management, but they seem to focus more on u/16 to u/18 levels.

    These things will take time, and a single season of Superrugby will not help much.

  14. Reply to Vetgesmeerde Blits @ 1:37 pm:


    But on the flip-side this ‘do-or-die’ 1 yr then relegation is the chalice that comes with being leap-frogged into a competition when they did not deserve to…

    EP really don’t have to concentrate on anything other than using this season to build a squad good enough to beat the Lions at the end of the season…

  15. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 2:04 pm:

    “EP really don’t have to concentrate on anything other than using this season to build a squad good enough to beat the Lions at the end of the season…”

    Something that Solomons is well aware of

  16. Reply to Morné @ 7:50 pm:

    Het deur ‘n kakkerige persoonlike tyd gegaan.

    Nou is ek terug.


    Toe ek nie geskree het nie, was hulle nerens. Watch hulle (in die “Flooze” se kakste aksent).

    Fk, hoe gril ek vir myself!

  17. Reply to DavidS @ 11:27 am:

    I wasn’t counting local players only as it is a worthless exercise in professional rugby.

    If you want however, I can count the born-and-bred EC boys currently in Super Rugby (but not necessarily with the Kings). Will that help?

  18. Reply to Cosa die BLOUBOK @ 4:37 pm:

    Vir die Bulle kan ek vinnig dink aan Bjorn Basson (King Williams Town) en Zane Kirchner (George laaitie). Jan Serfontein gebore in PE maar hy het skool gegaan in Bloem.

    Dan die twee Potgieters soos jy se, Odwa… en ja vir die Bulle is dit omtrent dit ek reken.

  19. Reply to Vetgesmeerde Blits @ 5:00 pm:

    Dan is ek een van die wat nie die grade maak nie – ek was op Uitenhage in die laerskool. Maar die fkn Bulle wil my nie kies nie…….

    Wens ek was familie van Cheeky, hy sou gou ‘n march gereel het om die dose reg te sien. Of hulle kon my betaal as afstanddoening van ‘n plek in die span.

  20. Ek dink die platteland lewer werklik ‘n goeie opbrengs top spelers. Ons moet die Oos Kaap as platteland klassifiseer, ernstig nou.

    Dit is ‘n baie groot area, geografies en populasie gewys. Vergelyk met Limpopo (Pietersburg) en selfs Kimberley. Politiek nmaak hulle die werklike onderpresteerders. En geld, natuurlik.

  21. Reply to Morné @ 4:15 pm:


    I want the indigenous African ones at the Kings … that is what the team was created to promote.

    The others like Ndunganes etc don’t count anymore… they were developed elsewhere… because the EP Kings / Elephants / Border / SWD was so awful at administering their players and systems.

    Don’t bother…

    There are only two.

  22. Reply to Cosa die BLOUBOK @ 5:31 pm:

    Oos-Kaap het die meeste klubs en Boland tweede in rugby van enige ander streek as ek my syfers reg onthou.

    Reply to DavidS @ 7:10 pm:

    Two things quickly before I waste my time.

    1) Do you dispute that the Eastern Cape from a simple numbers point of view has/produces more black/coloured players than any other region in SA? (As a tip, this has to do with the reason politicians wants them in top tier rugby).

    2) Is it the Kings or Eastern Cape’s responsibility alone to help transform rugby in this country. (Tip, as I know you need it; Either you agree transformation in rugby in this country is necessary or you don’t so try and answer it from that perspective and not your usual evasive lawyer talk).

    As for the development argument in pro rugby it is clear you did not understand Ollie’s and Blits’ posts. Players will remain in areas of origin if opportunities exist for them to be developed there, which is currently clearly not the case in the Eastern Cape.

    But hey, don’t take my word for it, I posted an article recently which quoted a guy that studied this and presented a professional report on transformation – I am sure you know which article I refer to.

  23. I made two statements.

    You are obfuscating to avoid the absolute truth of both.

    1. The Kings franchise was created to promote black rugby and in particular AFRICAN rugby in the Eastern Cape.

    2. The team has FIVE foreign non South African and TWO indigenous local Eastern Cape bred African black players in the final squad.

    There is no discussion or debate or excuses.

    There is simple fact.

    Like it hate it comment on it as you will.

    I don’t care.

    There are the facts. No excuses or opinion pieces or numbers games from player numbers or past players is EVER going to change those two immutables. Hey I realize you probably hate me for pointing out the dead obvious elephant in the room everyone is avoiding… but explaining why there are TWO very big elephants in the room is not going to take them away… so waste your time ahead… I love to watch opinion being equated to knowledge and fact…

  24. As a matter of interest in 1984 Louis Luyt bought a bankrupt rugby stadium with an amateur team close to being relegated.

    In 1986 and 1987 they contested the Currie Cup Final.

    Those were amateurs.

    Northern Transvaal did a similar miracle between 2000 – 2003 (CC) and 2003 to 2005 (SR).

    They started off a base of virtual bankruptcy with no fans and no injections from then SARFU…

    The Kings started off a base of being owned by SARU and handed a super stadium, a tried and tested successful coach (even at national level), and virtually a blank chequebook…

    It’s three years and they have still not progressed out of the First Division…

  25. Reply to DavidS @ 9:37 pm:

    What you clearly miss as has been pointed out to boredom is that it is fucking impossible for them to deliver on this so-called promise of promoting black rugby being awarded a franchise 5 months ago and guys like you wanting to see results now.

    5 months…

    Let that sink in.

    What the hell has anyone done in 18 years?

    You are not pointing out the elephant in the room dude, you are the elephant in the room and the most ironic thing is you don’t realise it. Well ironic and funny actually.

    Reply to DavidS @ 9:43 pm:


    Jurie Roux on the question if the Kings received ANY money from SA Rugby.


    You want me to post the quote for you?

    I’d would absolutely love for you to define the blank chequebook statement. That would really make my year.

  26. Reply to DavidS @ 9:43 pm:

    You know what.

    Forget everything said above or ever around the Kings/Lions/SA Rugby/whatever.

    One simple yes or no answer from you will give me all I need to know on your point around this issue.

    So forget reason, forget argument, forget history, forget the parties and people/teams involved – just a simple yes or no answer.

    “Do you believe there is a need for the game of rugby in South Africa to transform?”

  27. Louis Luyt and Transvaal amateur, Yeah right. All the money in the world made off his own questionable business deals and the pick of any player prepared to be paid under the table and x number of years by a SARU scared %%*^less to perform his magic. vs Kings being given a poisened chalice and told to measure up with SARU taking an active step to limit the players availableto mostly also rans. Cheeky could only dream of that kind of manipulation.

    Morne, that answer is so obvious, 90% of bloggers believe any sort of transformation is racist. Funny it’s only the white ones.

  28. If those self same bloggers had been locked up by the security police etc i.e. bone fide anti apartheid activists AND THEN said transformation in any form is rascist they’d be a bit more believable but… seeing that some of them WERE the security police you can see why the feel more comfortable in brown shirts.

  29. This whole Kings/Lions saga:
    Even the ANC could not have been
    better at fooking things up than
    Saru. Not even with their 19 year
    history of screwing everything:
    Education. Eskom. Defence Force.
    Health. Public Works. Even Robben
    Island (which has been ramsacked).

  30. Reply to Morné @ 10:04 pm:

    5 Months?

    The Kings were formed in 2009. They played against the B&I Lions.
    They were promised around 2011, that they will play SR in 2013.
    Them replacing the last placed SA team of 2012, was announced last February.

    SARU could have changed their minds again yes, but to say they were only awarded a franchise 5 months ago is wholly inaccurate. What happened 5 months ago is that you (and they) realized that the promise would actually be kept this time.

  31. You cannot run a franchise without big money, you cannot buy players, you cannot buy coaches, you cannot set up effective development acadamies. The only way that can be done is with a seriously rich benefactor ala Louis or more importantly these days, SPONSORSHIP. Without GUARANTEED super rugby participation there is NO sponsorship. So in fact it is even less than 5 months and then that 5 months was carefully crafted so that it fell outside of the contract window and then further poisoned so that there was no guarantee of a standard contract lengths worth of Super Rugby participation. i.e. anybody who signed either has a vision or is desperate but then you guys have been told this so many times. There is none so deaf…..

    PS based on SARU’s history, what was the risk of them reneging on their commitment? :Rule 9:

  32. Reply to Boertjie @ 12:03 am:

    That is the truth.

    Reply to Timeo @ 5:57 am:

    Please T.

    The Spears were promised this in 2005 already too which means this franchise was ‘formed’ almost 10 years ago.

    Before the Kings were officially given the franchise 5 months ago they could not;

    * Contract any players for Super Rugby
    * Secure any form of sponsorship
    * Invest in structures, academies etc. at a level where it benefits Super Rugby
    * Appoint back room staff
    * Build a Super Rugby brand

    And 10 000 other things.

    An operating budget for Super Rugby for a franchise was around R30-mil 2 years ago, of which the bulk if that is generated through sponsorship or commercial partners.

    Close to 80% of that operating budget is spent on player contracting.

    You want to understand the importance of operating within in a Super Rugby structure and being promised you might be in a year or so time? Just look at the Lions and sponsorships (Coke) they lost who decided not to renew their deal and also their players.

    Yesterday DHL extended their sponsorship of the Stormers a year before their current deal expires (naming rights of the team and stadium rights – similar to Coke – for the stadium). You believe this would have happened if the Stormers was not part of Super Rugby?


  33. Reply to Morné @ 10:04 pm: Okay the rest is as expected hysterical vitriol which simply yet again does not answer the two factual statements I made.

    You need to start differentiating between fact and opinion Morne.


    Go listen to Oregan Hoskins tell parliament under oath SARU did give the Kings’* SR bid financial aid…

    That is all that requires an answer.

    * note correct use of apostrophe

    Reply to Morné @ 10:14 pm:

    Define “transform” and once you do… answer this… transform to what?

    Reply to marko @ 10:29 pm:

    You of course have indubitable proof of this. Until you do keep your conjecture to brandy fuelled braaivleis chats not serious discussion.

    Hein Boonzaaier who is one of the Mangaung Four was locked up for receiving an e-mail from someone who said they were planning to overthrow the government. He answered the guy and said he was crazy… THAT is why he was jailed for … apparently he had to report it to the police.

    So you tell me about the security police… sounds very similar to the 1980s doesn’t it? Similar insulting conjecture with no factual backup for what you are saying.

  34. Reply to DavidS @ 1:07 pm:

    I cannot believe you made me read that whole bloody document to find absolutely no evidence of SARU ever giving the KINGS money but rather allocating funding to set up academies in the EC region and Boland. If I missed that reference, I would like for your to point it out to me.

    So again please explain your Kings blank chequebook statement to give me clarity.

    For your information:

    Graeme Joffe: “How much money has SARU put into the Kings since becoming a shareholder?”

    Jurie Roux: “Not a cent.”

    I think you need to be careful of accusing others about the difference between fact and fiction.

    Further on in the same Joffe article:

    Joffe: Was there any government intervention in the Kings decision?

    Roux: No.

    Joffe: Is the govt and SARU involved in a sec21 company to assist with growing talent in the Eastern Cape?

    Roux: No. SARU has applied for and been granted Lotto funding, however, for rugby academies in Boland, SWD, Border and Eastern Province. SARU also made applications for academies in the Griffons, Pumas, Leopards and Valke regions which were unsuccessful.

    (Pretty much what your linked article says)

    And as far as defining transformation, you posted that document a second ago, transformation is discussed in quite a lot of detail there – I am sure you read it. (or maybe not)

    But then again I never expected a simple yes or no answer from you.

  35. Reply to marko @ 10:35 pm:

    Just clarify this please Marko, I don’t get what you are saying. Who is the brown shirts? Where do the former police come in?

    Does being liberal preclude you from wearing tinted glasses?

  36. Reply to Cosa die BLOUBOK @ 2:22 pm:

    My contention Cosa is SA Rugby funding the Kings franchise (and them pissing this away) as David suggests (or state as fact).

    Funding academies in a region to promote the further development of talent is not even close to this. And the reason for chosing this specific region is quite simply about the numbers of black and coloured players they have as the transformation drive as explained in the link David posted which SARU pitched to government.

  37. Only read your 2pm post now, Morne.

    I think on the question of Lotto funding channelled through SARU, Jurie was not honest in his answer, but evaded the direct question by referring to the Academies.

  38. Reply to Morné @ 2:29 pm:

    Morne, funding the Academies is the absolute correct thing to do. By why call that transformation? Rather call it rationalisation. Surely, this facilities must be utilised to develop and give opportunity to ALL promising players, irrespective of race or school attended. So, if Jan Serfontein is identified as a great prospect, whether his dad makes a zillion bucks a year, or live as bywoner, he must be included in the academy system FOR THE SAKE OF RUGBY.

    Do not allocate social responsibility for transformation to the sport of Rugby, or any other.

    That is the politicians’ prerogative. And if they stole less, they could have done so much for the people in need.

    Interesting, on Radio 2000 during lunchtime of the cricket, Peter Kirsten and Ray Jennings had a chat about cricket’s academy system, and that the black players are coming in leaps and bouds, and that there is a great future for SA cricket.

    If we consider cricket, did they pick en masse black people at the cost of white players? Maybe some singular selections, but not en masse.

    So, the lesson that rugby can learn from cricket, ………

    No, sorry, cricket was not subjected to so much political pressure as rugby. The Boere se game (ala Luke).

    Do not allot social responsibility to the sport of rugby. The social responsibility lies with the politicians.

    And Nkandla’s expense is actually quite commendable, how many little Zumas must they house and feed and school, and maybe teach them rugby and cricket.

  39. Reply to Cosa die BLOUBOK @ 3:04 pm: Reply to Morné @ 3:24 pm:

    Funny thing on that article I wrote though – a current provincial rugby player contracted to a Currie Cup premier division side (not in the Cape or Eastern Cape) took real exception to my thoughts claiming I had no idea just how bad racism in rugby still is.

    Funny thing, it was a white player who highlighted racism that still exist today against coloured and black players even at professional level.

  40. Reply to Cosa @ 6:46 pm:

    Kom ek stel dit so, as die wat teen die gemeenskap kwaad doen meer reg het as die gemeenskap of as jy ‘n lisensie moet he om iets verantwoordelik te doen soos om ‘n kar te bestuur maar nie om ‘n regering te kies nie dan is iets groots fout.

    Ek het zero, geen, nul belangstelling in politiek nie. I reckon in 300 or 500 years from now our great, great grandchildren will look at how we did things and not believe we prescribed some sick, farcical joke like democracy which is nothing more than a mass, manipulating circus.

  41. Reply to Morné @ 6:55 pm:

    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
    University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

    “A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
    gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a

    It doesn’t hurt to read this several times. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in
    St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

    Number of States won by:
    Obama: 19 McCain: 29
    Square miles of land won by::
    Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
    Population of counties won by::
    Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
    Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

    Professor Olson adds: “In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

    Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare…” And, of course, Zuma’s mass support comes from poor/uneducated citizens who are largely in the rural districts.

    Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the “complacency and apathy” phase of Professor Tyler’s definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation’s population already having reached the “governmental dependency” phase.

    If Congress/Parliament of RSA grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals – and they vote – then we can say goodbye to the USA/RSA in fewer than five years.

  42. Bravo Boertjie, jy het die geleerdheid en kennis en naslaanvermoens en obvious styl wat ek as Bloubul nie het nie.

    As jy nie ‘n wiepie was nie, het ek vir jou gestem vir president.

  43. Reply to Cosa @ 7:20 pm:

    Jy sal diegene kry wat demokrasie op papier bevorder as die beste systeem – en op papier is dit, maar dit is die gierege leiers wat dit opfok.

    Hoe het een van die grootste philosophers van sy tyd, Plato (wat ironies genoeg ‘n Griek was wie die kak begin het) dieselfde argumente teen demokrasie gemaak as wat ons vandag maak of die man wat Boertjie hierbo gequote het? En dit meer as 1500 jaar terug.

  44. “A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
    gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a

    They only vote themselves a fraction of the resources. The real end of democracy is when the representatives have stolen everything

    Then democracy, having reached the same loco as Facism ( being – no incentive to produce), Communism – I am not compelled to excel, Royalism – that fucking prince effed my mother, oh he’s my dad! thats ok then, whe’ll eat the rats, implodes.

    What historical evidence do we have to assess an imploded democracy?

    The Greek stuff did not survive the ages for current study.

    Only that the real shit happens when women got the vote.

    So, what is racism?

    Thinking the darky cannot produce?

    Thinking women fucked up everything since paradise? And not just historical, it is a daily activity with them. Or is “concurrent” a better word.

    So, embrace your enemies.

    Ja, well, that is why they founded Valentines Day.

  45. These currie c*nts are really out to own world
    cricket, not supporting the technology,
    now this.
    And nobody has the guts to stand up to them:

    Editors support Aussie protest

    Johannesburg – South African editors have endorsed an intended media protest against Indian cricket’s ban on a US photo agency.

    The SA National Editors’ Forum (Sanef) said on Thursday it supported editors, publishers and broadcasters on the issue.

    The Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) has refused customary accreditation to photo agency Getty Images for the upcoming Australian cricket tour of India.

    “Sanef regards the BCCI’s conduct as a serious breach of the customary arrangements for media coverage of sporting events, an unacceptable restriction on press freedom, and as having the potential to do serious harm to the game of cricket.”

    The photo agency provides images to major Australian publishers.

  46. Reply to Boertjie @ 9:03 pm:

    Haha! Ironically, like democracy we discussed earlier – if you give someone too much power, they fuck everything up – and in the cricket world, India currently has the money, and therefore perceived ‘power’ and now the ‘people’ are standing up against them.

    Isn’t it funny how everything is the same yet different?

  47. In the end it all comes down to that most
    rejectable human trait: G-R-E-E-D.

    In the end the stage is created for the
    rugby players to burn themselves out –
    and they gladly accept the conditions
    behind a screen of moans and blaming
    the administrators.

  48. Democracy may not last forever but it lasts longer with more stability and less violence than any other system. The American Republic has had stable and non violent politics now for around 160 years. British around 300 years. Swiss, even longer. See if you can beat that. The Roman Republic’s stable run was much longer than any of the few stable Emperial periods.

    Non Democratic systems only achieve stability via the threat of violence and violence errupts almost every time power changes hands. When it comes to general welfare and happiness, democracy is the best system by far. It does not have to last forever, only for my own and my children’s lifetimes. Next generations will take responsibility for themselves.

  49. It is not the type of politics you have in a country that is often the problem, but the people in the government.

    Corruption, greed and misuse of power is what topple countries.

  50. Reply to Timeo @ 5:39 am:

    Depends what the result is Timeo…

    If it is Augustus or Octavian or Charlemagne or Napoleon or Gadaffi then by all means bring on the benign dictatorship rather than Obama with his drones hunting down anyone his generals and CIA don’t like worldwide… and cynically standing idly by while Israel does the same then whining about human rights abuses by the government of the nation next door.

  51. Reply to DavidS @ 4:31 pm:

    Democracies are not perfect.

    Benign dictators and good Kings do exist also but their replacements are rarely good or benign. So the peace and prosperity that common people may enjoy in those systems rarely last more than the reign of the single good leader.

    Many modern democracies on the other hand now have a good track records of more stability, freedom and justice for the citizens over longer periods. The old line about how all democracies will eventually self destruct is a poor one, because the alternatives have been proven to be much worse.

  52. Reply to DavidS @ 4:31 pm:

    The sad thing is that there was a huge outcry from the world regarding Bush’s tactics and a deafening silence now.

    Which is worse, imprisoning and perhaps torturing the suspected bad guy or vaporizing him and all bystanders?
    To me it seems obvious.

    But it’s also obvious that Obama’s tactics are much more effective, and since the complaints are so few, it’s going to continue.

    The vast majority of the planet’s people and countries have figured out how to stay on America’s good side and they don’t suffer for it.

    Same goes for the Palestinians. If they really wanted peace with Israel, the USA will make it happen. While they don’t want peace, there’s very little that can be done about their suffering.

  53. Reply to Timeo @ 8:27 pm:

    There is a show on SA television at the moment called ‘The History of us’ on Discovery.

    They had an insert a second ago and there is one thing that stuck.

    It is amazing that democracy only became a reality once man figured out how to use minerals like iron, smelt it and turn it into weapons (spears, armour etc).

    Now I am no historian or even close to being a political analyst, but I did find it interesting that democracy was basically born out of humans fighting (war) for freedom where before it was never needed until some okes went on a power trip (having money and weapons).

    It is believed some economies only survive thanks to war – and those economies are the ones that is built on the basis of democracy.

    Go figure.

  54. Reply to Morné @ 9:24 pm:

    Oh that’s a load a bullshit.

    Fighting, weapons and war pre-date metals technology and democracy by thousands of years.

    The Bronze-age existed from around 2100BC to 1200BC.
    Bronze = Metals melted together to make weapons. There were many-many wars during this era. There are lots of evidence for that and no evidence of democracy.

    Democracy in Athens appeared after 600BC.

    You should never take the things you see on Discovery channel seriously.

  55. Prior to democracy:


    Indus Valley
    Steppe “Chariot” People

    Gave us shit like

    Water irrigation
    Sea Travel
    Animal husbandry
    Domesticated animals
    International trade

    This was way before democracy…

  56. Reply to Timeo @ 8:18 pm:

    The problem with the present system of democracy is the separation of legislation and executive.

    The legislative power is incessantly changing every few years.

    The servants of the executive are career bureaucrats that serve what 30 or 40 years and are the ones actually controlling national policy IN SPITE OF the legislature.

    The result is true bureaucracy.

    The legislature effectively rubber stamps what they are told to by executive’s career bureaucrats.

    The result is that effectively your and my power diminishes as the executive increases its power and ensconces its position of power.

    The result is what you see in America today.

    Differences between the two main parties are effectively artificial on small issues whilst the bureaucrats run the country.

    Like Belgium a few years back that was without a legislature or an elected executive because there was nobody prepared to co-operate… the government still ran on efficiently and quitely by bureaucrats who never needed elected officials to tell them what to do… which leads to the scary question that how many other “democracies” can do the same and run without elected officials? I would submit that in the West probably all of them.

    And that leads to a horror question…


    If you want a brilliant expose on this then James Herbert’s Dune series is a brilliant exposition on why democracy is as dangerous a system as any dictatorship or tyranny.

    Man’s actual advances in technology occur in times of extreme stress.

    The time of China’s greatest advances was during the Seven Kingdoms era when many feudal rulers claimed rulership of the country and made war on each other. Confuscius, Sun Tze and a host of fine scholars lived in this time. The same with Greece.

    Under democracy Greece was hardly stable… the states hated each other just a little less than they hated Persia’s barbarians and this time of stress gave rise to advances that included fine philosophers and logical orators.

    The same happened with Rome. Although it was a rising power as a republic once it reached its Imperial stage however it was unstable but wrought great advances in law, human rights, bureaucracy, philosophy and even diplomacy.

    WW2 was the most unstable era in Europe’s history but gave rise to probably the greatest time of human technological advances we have ever seen concentrated into such a small time frame…

  57. Reply to DavidS @ 7:03 pm:

    That’s all true if over-all human progress is your greatest good. For me it is not. The greatest good for me is the happiness of myself and the people close to me. For that peace and prosperity is, what is required. I’d be perfectly content living under a king or dictator as long as he deliver on those Based on my reading of world events, I find democracy to be best suited. In my opinion, democracies are more stable and more likely to engage in trade rather than war than the alternatives.

    If I have to die a violent and premature death in order for the human species to gain rapid technological advance, then rapid technological advance, is of no use to me.

    Regarding your comments on bureaucrats. Since the most likely path to the presidency is via a governorship, the USA gets a fresh injection of new executive level bureaucrats, every time we change our president. Also the system can absolutely not function without elected officials and is designed such that a similar situation as to the one in Belgium is extremely unlikely.

    Another two ways in which our system is just superior.

    Here’s to you, Messrs. Jefferson, Hamilton and Madison.

  58. Reply to Morné @ 8:36 am:

    I’ll give the short version as it was related to me recently.

    Once upon a time there was a king with an empire in Anatolia bordering on the greatest empire of the time, the Persian, who asked the oracle of Delphi, what would happen if he invaded his neighbor? The answer he got was that a great empire would fall. He invaded, and the prophesy became true, but not in the way he expected.
    A number Greeks who previously lived happily in his empire,then became Persian subjects through no fault of their own and found this to be extremely disagreeable. They revolted, and received some help from Athens in doing so. The revolt was quickly crushed and it turned out that the great Persian emperor was a man who bore a grudge, so some years later the Athenians found themselves outnumbered, and facing his armies at Marathon.

    Now follow my favorite part.

    They selected a man named Pheidippides, who’s occupation was given as an “all day runner” to run to Sparta for help. Significantly, Sparta was about 230km and several high mountain passes away. Pheidippedes had to run more than just all day. In fact, he ran all day, all night and most of the next day, only to be told by the Spartans that they’d love to help but already had plans for that week.

    He had run back, with the bad news.
    In all, about five Comrades’s in three days, without the aid of Nike shoes and blood doping!

    AND if you combine the different versions of the story, he then also took part in battle and afterwards run the inaugural 42km marathon to Athens to bring the news of victory.

    Then he dropped dead.

    Perhaps because Gatoraid and Cliff bars were not invented yet!

    If you think such feats are impossible, I assure you it is not.

    read this:

    or this:

  59. Naaahhh

    My favorite part is the Greeks though outnumbered by a huge magnitude, trusting their citizen soldiers so much that they reduced their phalanx to four deep instead of eight and STILL marched on the waiting Persians.

    THAT is cool.

    In any event what conquered Persia was not democratic Greece but very much imperial Greece under a Macedonian guy called Meglos Alexandros… who’s idea of democracy was to select advisors he knew would disagree with him so he could hear opposing viewpoints that he could use to his advantage…

    Same with the Mongolian Kahn under Temujin.

    Two greatest, most peaceful and prosperous empires ever…

    Not democratic.

    Simply concentrating on self preservation is selfish and typically American.

    There is another world and when your government’s executives support a one middle eastern terrorist state at the expense of another and when your government okays it for your military to use robot aeroplanes to hunt down its citizens that disagree with it…

    Well excuse me for thinking you live in a lala land…

    Jefferson’s ideals were raped.

    What happens in the US is NOT the issue of the executive and legislature that is the problem. The problem is the career bureaucrats whom your government cannot control…

    The guys who make lists of who your Predator drones should hunt down and murder without the benefit of a lawyer trial.

    What about your own American and other citizens held without trial at Guantanamo Bay despite court orders to release them for on ten years?

    How would you like to be held in one of the CIA’s “secret international prisons” worldwide where your wonderful government terrorises its opponents with torture and forced confessions.

    Sorry bud, but USA 2012 might as well have troops goose stepping and saluting their president as a fuhrer…

  60. What’s selfish about wanting to live in peace and wishing the same for everyone else?

    The fact is, that the number of people who are enemies of America, are a very-very small and dwindling minority of the planet’s population. Soon they too will realize, that living peacefully with the USA, is easy and much more rewarding than the opposite. Follow the example of the Chinese, the Russians, the Germans and the Japanese.

  61. And just like war and disruptions sometimes leads to great advances, it also sometimes leads to great declines.

    The exhaustive war in the 7th century between the Romans and the Parthians, lead to the permanent decline of the first and the total destruction of the latter, by opening the door for the Arab invasions.

    The British empire too, was done in by wars (WWI and WWII) that they could have easily chosen to stay out of.

    When historians look back at Western history, they will mark 1914, as the peak of Western power. Already today, relative to the rest, it is much less than it was a 100 years ago. The only reason we still talk about Western power is because of America. The power of Western Europe, is all but gone already and the peak of American power was most probably around 20 years ago.

    The technological benefits of WWII were very short term. All those advances would have been made with much less cost and trauma, in the next few decades anyway.

  62. Reply to Timeo @ 6:18 pm:

    Collectively Europe is STILL bigger in terms of economy than the US.

    The US is the only Western nation which has reached a point where it is physically impossible for it to ever pay off its debt.

    You’ll be surprised to know that very few people are “friends” of the United States and the after your little adventures in the Middle east your enemies have multiplied hugely throughout the world, which is why you now end up having to throw your weight around the world.

    I repeat

    1. Since 20 years ago the United States has made more enemies than friends in the world. The United States still hunts down its enemies with drones which is something nobody has ever done.

    2. If anything your enemies are growing.

    3. Your economy is slowly collapsing as opposed to those of your greatest enemies Russia and China.

    4. China as the next world power is NO friend of America. their people scorn your “democracy” and laugh at your “human rights” – they see your exaggerated respect of their tyranny as weakness.

    The Persians and Romans lost their wars against the Arabs by virtue of (like America these days) not being able to adapt to warmaking… the Arabs basically skirmished both armies to death. The Persians at Yarmulke River.

    As for the Romans are you seriously going to contend that 7th century Rome was “defeated” as a result of its Persian war? You are aware that Constantinople only fell to the Arabs or rather their Turkish replacements in 1453… that is uhum… about well… the small matter of 700 years afterwards… some weakness to last 700 years as an imperial power after being so weakened they could not defeat the Arabs… as a matter of interest in the 7th and 8th century the Romans defeated the Arabs. The Ottomans (who had conquered the Arabs) had one blockade (too scared to take on the Romans) and one unsuccessful siege before they finally broke the city.

    At all times Rome was an emperor ruled city which was regarded as the greatest seat of learning in Christendom wnd whose fall was one of the reasons for learning and the Renaissance to spread into Europe and create modern domination by Western civilization.

    You are not going to convince me that democracy is evermore workable.

    It has its weaknesses just like other tyrannical and even Communistic systems.

    Democracy is failing because power attracts corruptible people.

    And the true power of democracy has transferred away from the old legislature and executive to the bureaucrats because the bureaucrats use legislation to secure their corrupting powers and emasculate the legislature.

  63. And yes when you look at the welfare of just your family, then Palestinian children get into target crosshair photos by Israeli sniper soldiers as a game…

    You get possibly innocent people indefinitely imprisoned in foreign jails.

    You get suspects kidnapped to foreign prisoners and tortured to avoid your constitutional rules.

    You get drones and satellites controlled by Air Force IT techies wiping out villages in Pakistan and Afghanistan…

    And why?

    Because you do not care about what happens outside your states?

    Inward looking is a very dangerous sport because it makes your street look safe while your world burns…

    I love my Nazi analogies but they are so apt.

    It’s like Hungarian Jews in 1944 pretending that they were okay in nationalist socialist Hungary which was a client state of Nazi Germany and not paying attention to what was happening outside their borders… until Nazi soldiers started loading them on cattle trucks for Auschwitz.

  64. Reply to DavidS @ 6:35 pm:

    You obviously like to read so I’ll strongly advise that you read this:

    Empires of Trust: How Rome Built–and America Is Building–a New World (Hardcover)
    by Thomas F. Madden

    It touches on many of the points you make up in that post and basically summarizes my positions much better than I can. Why did imperial Rome survived so long?
    What’s the benefit to the rest, when the imperial power is inward looking? Resentment, antagonism, admiration and the desire to be part of Rome co-existed in the ancient world as much as it exists, regarding the USA today. The relationship between Rome and Greece vis a vis America and Europe today. Relative power, demographic trends and even the problem of religious fanatics in Palestine.

    It’s all there. You may not agree with it all but you’ll certainly learn some things.

    And I’ll leave it at that.

  65. Reply to Timeo @ 3:35 am:

    Put it this way: US must be the most hated
    nation on the planet – or do you know of
    Muslims liking Uncle Sam?
    They also just happen to be by far the
    biggest religious group on the planet.
    We are living the last decades of Western
    civilisation as we know it.
    English (the American variation) could soon
    be a minority language in the US.

    And do you know why Pakistanis flock to Europe?
    To see their doctor.

  66. Europeans have been cutting military spending over the last few decades, to the point where they are practically abolishing their armies.

    Why so?

    Either they believe the world will be a very safe place in the future, or they trust the USA to keep it safe for them. So they resent Americans and trust (depend on) them at the same time.

    Elites from all over the world send their kids to American universities, because they believe that rubbing shoulders with America’s elites will be an advantage.

    Meanwhile common people from all over the world, Muslims included, want to immigrate to Europe, the USA and other Western like countries and not to Russia or China or Iran or Pakistan.

    It seems to me that they all believe, that America and the West are strong and will stay strong for a long time to come, and you could hardly hate the place and behave like that at the same time.

  67. and you could hardly hate the place and behave like that at the same time.

    But they do…

    In the last twenty years for the first time in history the US has been the target of foreign terrorists and primarily from Islamic religious persuasion.

    People may study in the United States but they are NOT becoming Americans.

    And they are actively trying to change the culture of Western nations to a more cosmopolitan one.

    As regards military spending, as from the end of the Cold War, every nation has cut military spending including the United States, in some way or another. However, in the last five years there has been a marked increase by France, the UK, Germany, India, China, India and Russia in defence spending, precisely because there is a feeling that the global capabilities of the United States is receding as its power to enforce peace wanes. Also one has to say that operationally its interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown the US Army up as a beatable force… just like Vietnam did.

    Reply to Ollie @ 12:59 pm:
    Reply to Morné @ 9:25 pm:

    Morne does not possess the capability to stick to a discussion once he is beaten as he clearly was in this thread…

    His Mengistu hysteria is not something one can debate with or discourse.

  68. Reply to Boertjie @ 8:01 pm:

    This morning there was a little piece on NPR about the upcoming elections and Kenya and efforts on keeping it more peaceful this time around. A group of graffiti artist were given permission to paint a Nairobi train. The first guy they interviewed is painting the face of Martin Luther King and the second guy is painting Barack Obama.

    Most hated nation on earth indeed.

  69. Reply to Timeo @ 3:08 pm:

    I hate to be obvious but all that stat says is the US spends on 5% of GDP on military and that is the most in the world. That is NOT what I disputed.

    I said its opponents and allies are INCREASING military spending…

    So for your edification.

    Chinese military spending from FY 2011 to 2012 is up 11%
    Britsih is up in FY 2012 with projected drop in 2014 to 2015…
    Russia is tripling its defence spending
    In FY2011-2012 France increased military spending by1,6% and kept the budget unchanged for 2012-2013 with plans to increase again this year.

    So in real terms your alies and opponents have increased defence spending. Only India has cut its defence spending by 5% because its economy is in deep deep trouble.

    By contrast US defence spending has steadily declined since 2011.

    Hey… it ain’t purdy but there it is…

    And you have obviously not read the history of East Africa if you think those names are “Un-Kenyan”.

    Graham Connah’s “African Civilizations” would be a good read too as it shows that in the era leading up to Portuguese exploration from about 800AD East Africa was Islamic. Mogadishu, Zanzibar, Pemba, Dar Es Salaam, Mombassa, Kilwa, Sofala, Kilepwa… all Islamic ruled Sultanates and some endured even after the Portuguese arrived and only ended with British and German colonization period in the 19th century.

    Those people and their weapons had to get into Kenya, hide, put everything together and bomb the embassy…

    Just a thought

    Second… uhum the most obvious two. America’s Africom is based in… oh yes… Stuttgart… which is not in Africa… and despite the attempts of three administrations Africa has indelibly refused to become a military base for the United States and Africa has opposed all American imperial and natural resources raiding expeditions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya in the United Nations.

    In contrast to what Americans believe Timeo they have very few friends… admirers yes… but friends… nope.

  70. What it says is that the USA spent $711B and China @228B, in 2012 in PPP-Dollars.

    What is very interesting to me is, that out of the next 14 military spenders, 10 are expressly allies of the United States and 2 are neutrals (Brazil and India). With India moving closer to the USA, in the last decade or so, it leaves only two potential adversaries.

    It seems unlikely to me that the world’s most hated nation, would have so many powerful friends.

  71. Reply to Timeo @ 9:21 pm:

    That is not what you said initially.

    It is of far greater interest that Western Europeans are increasing defence spending whilst the US cuts back on its own. That says that NATO is perhaps realizing that its ally is faltering.

    You are mistaking alliances with friendship. There is a difference.

    And of course the two nations which are most aggressively arming themselves and increasing military spending are both nuclear armed superpowers who are a definite threat to US security.

    The scary thing for the US should be not that Russia is rearming, but the fact that Russia sees the US as a threat to its interests whilst Europe and Russians co-operate ever more closely on all spheres… heck the Euro is virtually legal tender in Moscow…

  72. Reply to DavidS @ 9:46 pm:

    I suggest you read your own posts again, champ.

    The Kings started off a base of being owned by SARU and handed a super stadium, a tried and tested successful coach (even at national level), and virtually a blank chequebook…

    and of course

    You need to start differentiating between fact and opinion Morne.


    Go listen to Oregan Hoskins tell parliament under oath SARU did give the Kings’* SR bid financial aid…

    That is all that requires an answer.

    And all I ever wanted was an answer…

    Blank chequebooks, financial aid… Hell I even conveniently posted a quote from the CEO of SA Rugby for you whether SARU invested a single cent in the Kings franchise.

    All the article you posted confirmed is that SARU applied for lotto funding to establish academies – 3 in the Eastern Cape and 1 in Boland (which I guess makes the Stormers beneficiaries of SARU financial aid then as-well).

    But in all honesty, your are boring me now, champ.

  73. Reply to DavidS @ 9:53 pm:

    Allies/Friends are close enough for me. When nations or states are allies, they won’t war on each other and they’ll engage in other beneficial interactions.

    al·ly (-l, l)
    v. al·lied, al·ly·ing, al·lies
    1. To place in a friendly association, as by treaty.
    2. To unite or connect in a personal relationship, as in friendship or marriage.
    To enter into an alliance: Several tribes allied to fend off the invaders
    n. pl. al·lies
    1. One that is allied with another, especially by treaty.
    2. One in helpful association with another
    [Middle English allien, from Old French alier, from Latin alligre, to bind to; see alloy.]

  74. Oh really?

    Russia and France
    Bulgaria and Serbia
    Germany and the Soviet Union
    Prussia and Austria
    Britain and the Soviet Union
    United States and the Soviet Union
    Britain and Palestine
    Persia and Rome post Justinian
    Croatia and Bosnia

    History is resplendent with examples where political change has wrought allies who were but allies for convenience and benefit and eventually turned on each other. In semantics ally may have a meaning which would associate with friend. However in real world politics alliances are for convenience to be discarded at a moment’s notice when the situation changes. The United States itself is guilty of this… recalling their great support for what were then heroically termed mujahedeen in the 1980s…

  75. But anyway let me start again because clearly I have not spent the past four years properly explaining myself.

    Let us start at the start. Who is the sole shareholder of the Kings when it is formed in 2009? SARU.

    Now aside from Tony McKeever’s costs of the Kings, let us look ONLY at SARU Financials

    2009 – acquired 50% shares in Border and EP professional arms/companies – which had to be paid to the shareholders, namely the rugby unions. In 2010 this is declared as a collective loss of R25 million by SARU.
    Page 21 and further. See notes 4 and 5

    2010 – Paid up on a suretyship to avoid the professional arm of SWD to be liquidated. R4,9 mill

    Two possibilities present themselves

    Scenario 1: SARU owns all the shares in the Kings… so aside from SARU anyone else who “finances” the Kings would effectively be making a loan to the company. The only party which finances a company is its shareholders unless banks or other backers are willing to make loans.

    Scenario 2: SWD, Border and EP own the Kings, in which event by SARU’s own financials they paid on R30 million since 2009 to stabilize the shareholders, of whom they OWN 50% each…

    Against that backdrop saying that SARU has not spent money on the Kings SURELY is a lie.