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ELVs aimed at Boks


Former Springbok coach Jake White believes the introduction of the new experimental laws forms part of an attempt to remove big, physical forwards, of which South Africa has an abundance, from the game.

Pieter Jordaan writes for Volksblad that White was the guest speaker at a banquet in the City of Roses on Wednesday evening during which the local rugby community paid tribute to Os du Randt’s contribution to South African rugby.

“The world wants to take South Africa’s big forwards out of the game – as with the new experimental laws,” said White.

“South Africa is the only country in the world that can win matches without the ball.?

White, who coached South Africa to World Cup glory in France, spoke with great admiration of Du Randt’s impact as a player, saying that no prop currently playing in South Africa “comes anywhere near Du Randt?.

White said he decided to approach Du Randt because at one point there weren’t really any good loosehead props coming through the ranks in South Africa.

“I’m sure that if he (Du Randt) hadn’t stopped playing for two years, he would have been the first Springbok to have played 100 Tests,? White said about the milestone reached by fullback Percy Montgomery in the recent Tri-Nations series.

White said Du Randt’s eagerness to prove the critics wrong was one of the reasons he continued believing in the prop as a player that could fulfil a vital role in the 2007 World Cup campaign.

“People said I was selecting a prop, Os du Randt, who was already over the hill, a hooker, John Smit, who was only the fifth best hooker in the country, and a fullback who was only a place-kicker with blond hair and white boots – Percy Montgomery. Today I believe it would have been a shame if they hadn’t gone.

“If they hadn’t gone, I wouldn’t be standing here speaking about it today – so thank you, Os du Randt.?

Meanwhile White has written on his blog that New Zealand’s triumph in this year’s Tri-Nations series vindicated the decision to persevere with Graham Henry as the All Black coach.

“Henry’s experience is what saw them through. The All Blacks were worthy winners and we should learn from them.”

White will coach the Barbarians in a festival match against Australia on 3 December. It was announced on Thursday that the New Zealand captain, Richie McCaw, will play for the Baabaas.

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  1. We’re not the only ones with burly forwards particularly front-rowers… NZ, Eng, Arg, to name but a few are the same…

    Aus are starting to pump out taller and as heavy locks by the dozen…

    Our fatties and tall-timber just have to become more fit…

    It’s not like Bismarck, CJ, Gurthro, Beast aren’t mobile anyways… and the same can be said of the likes of Houtpiel, and the beast Hayman…

    One argument could be that they do limit lineouts (or were intended to)…

  2. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:38 am:
    I agree , for the first time i think Jake is talking :poop:
    Or he has an ego the size of an Tappit mine dump , to think the whole world conspired against us because of our physical ability , which did’nt look like much in the Tri nations anyhow .

  3. Jake I don’t really get this.

    As far as I am aware one of the guys who had a huge part to play in setting up and testing these ELV’s which was submitted to the IRB was none other than Ian Mac.

    Wasn’t he part of your team?

  4. Jake sal op die stadium enige kak kwytraak – net om in die nuus te bly…


    n Groot gedeelte van die ELV is by die Maties se Koshuis Rugby getoets – wat n redelike verteenwoordiging van Suid Afrikaanse spelers is…

  5. If you have some money to invest, then open a :soapbox: franchise all over SA. You have one client in the bag.

  6. You guys are being real pricks now.

    If you watch Heineken Cup and Tri Nations etc. you again realise what a huge thing it was for SA(with all its issues and infighting etc) to go to France and pick up a World Cup win.

    Now all of a sudden Jake is the arsehole?

    Hell the guy gives his opinion and you all react as if he knows fuck-all?

    None of you were in England to read after the World Cup what the mood was like up there. MOst commentators lambasted the IRB for allowing ‘boring’ countries the laws to dominate. South Africa according to them was the most uninspiring winners in the history of the world cup.

    They had equally bad things to say about Argentina.

    Off course they would want to change things to neutralise our strengths and Ian Mac was only one of the contributors?

    Have some perspective okes.

  7. Now I am not one to hark on about the past but right now it feels like we try so hard to justify the PdV era that we HAVE to lambast the era before?

  8. Reply to newbokshields @ 9:45 am:
    No , no you got it wrong i am an big supporter of Jake White but the ELV’S weren’t brought in to Stop us thats Bull Shit .
    As for :snor: if you watched boots and all last night , i cringed with embarasment when they ( The Aussies )regarded him funnier than Seinfeld and showed clips off him .
    Now compared to Jake this :snor: is uneducated embisile .

  9. Reply to sharks30 @ 9:56 am:

    would it have made you feel better is jake said ‘teams like us’?

    Hell we won an entire WC without worrying too much about possession or territory. Surely this must mean something?

  10. Jake is saying what the public want to hear and add to that the paranoid “thy are out to get us” syndrom does not help.
    You really think the world is plotting to get us? Come on they do not have to do a thing, we will shoot ourselves in the foot given enough time.

  11. JT I dont think the world are out to get us but no doubt they will try some tricks to get themselves more competative.

    Countries like Ireland and Wales etc. dont produce the size specimen in a decade that Pretoria produces everytime a girls gets drunk at a Steve concert and is up for a shag.

    So as long as the laws allow SA to strangle opposition it will in their minds constitute an unfair advantage.

  12. Funny years ago in ireland a newspaper journo wrote an article on how unfair the SA system of the ‘super sub’ (as used by Mallet) was. He called for this to be scrapped. Today we use Luke Watson.

    Similarly after the game against wales at Millenium in 2004 I nearly got bliksemed by these okes in a pub in Cardif because according to them we cheated with our rush defence and Burger was apparently allowed to be offside all the time.

    We are never better than these guys. We cheat to win.

    Ireland lost to Argentina because (in the words of O’Driscol) its ‘hard to beat a team who refuses to play’.

    I read 5 english Sunday papers the day after our WC win and not one of them had good to say about SA. It was all about how the laws have allowed teams like us to play boring rugby and get away with it.

    SA is still by far the most hated rugby team in the world so dont be so naive to think they wont use whatever means to get us in line.

  13. Reply to newbokshields @ 9:45 am:

    NBS… lol… methinks you misunderstand the thread (besides Donner)…

    Reply to sharks30 @ 9:56 am:

    I was on the computer working, eating dinner with one eye on Inside Rugby’s last episode of the season, when my wife started shouting ‘watch this watch this’… cringeworthy indeed!

  14. Reply to newbokshields @ 10:21 am:

    Same as the reports coming out now that NZ are winning on how McCaw cheats?? The losers are always looking for excuses. We bitched about the poms cheating and playing dirty at the WC 2003 (remember all the “attacks” by Thompson on Bands in that game?? – Bands was the only TH in the SA 22 and they targeted him.)
    When AUs was winning we bitched about the illegal tactics at the break down and the scrum. Same old same old.
    My team starts winning and all of a sudden I am getting reports from our union about, you can’t do this or that and other teams in the league bitching how unfair and dirty we play.
    When we were loosing we got voted the best place to play and party… :whatever:

  15. NBS… I think you’re overrating the ‘perceived’ Bok size…

    We don’t have the heaviest/tallest props in the world…

    We don’t have the tallest/heaviest locks in the world

    We don’t have the tallest/heaviest flanks in the world…

    And our backline’s total height/weight is not greater than other tops teams in the world… so I don’t really see your point?

  16. Jake just said his personal opinion.
    It’s not a mystery that IRB is under a huge pressure from the Australians since many years and those Aussies would like to copy the Rugby League play.

    And it’s not a mystery IRB don’t like SA rugby: they tried to spoil Boks last year RWC (with Burger and Steyn citings) and many of the ELVs are a clear atatck to the Boks historical way to play.
    A plot…

  17. How do the Aussies and NZ’rs see rugby? They (guys in charge) see it as a product to be sold and try to improve the product!
    How do SA, England, France, Ireland see rugby?? I/we (most of us anyway) see it as a game with Traditions and history…

    How do you personally see it?? (Question to all)

  18. Reply to Offside Mac @ 11:14 am:

    I won’t disagree we seem to get the bad rub of the whistle depending on who is reffing… and I most definitely won’t disagree the Aussies have been pushing for the ELV’s which suit their style…

    Other than the lineouts… the ELV’s don’t affect our ‘perceived’ strengths other than plausibly we are not fit enough?

  19. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 11:23 am:

    The Aussie and Kiwi’s see rugby union in exactly the same light as we do in terms of tradition and history… believe you me…

    The difference is the Aussies run the ARU as a competitive commercial business… they are endlessly competing with the more ‘popular’ sports in Aus… namely AFL, Football, League, Cricket, for market share and performance targets… hence the need for re-invention, refinement etc etc…

  20. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 11:31 am:

    that is why I said the “people in charge” – that is what I get through the media. Always the same with “product and improving the product!”
    Proffesionalism f…ed the game beyond all recognition that is why I enjoy rugby MUCH more at the social/amateur level than I can enjoy the “PRODUCT” :nono:

  21. i think all White is saying is that the rules favour less extreme body shapes cos the ball is in play for longer. south africans are traditionally big powerful men which gives us an inherent advtage in the collision area (with other sides catching up thru intensive gym/conditioning programs), whereas the rules naturally suit sides like Oz, France and Wales that play a faster more skillful game.

    The difference is analagous to American football which is an explosive sport having extreme body shapes, whereas rugby league is less explosive and more endurance favouring a more homgeoneous fitter body shape. in fact one only has to compare the size of a prop in league to union to see the difference.

    in other words, stan has a point.

  22. Reply to cab @ 11:37 am:

    no matter how they change the laws, when the WC quaterfinals and semis and final is played the players will play safety first and the game will be “boring” again for those who want entertainment. If you want entertainemnt then go watch S14 or CC or sitcoms but forget that in the WC finals!

  23. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 11:42 am:


    a team can play the most – entertaining style of rugby – if they consistently lose – nobody is going to bother supporting them.

    A team can play the most boring – dare I say boorish style of rugby – if they consistently win – they will have loads of supporters.

    That is just human nature – supporters support winning teams – always through the ages – been that way . . . . . . . .

  24. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 11:37 am:

    No I don’t think NZ can be bracketed in with that… they just continually strive to best the trend-setters…

    As I said Aus on the other hand… have different priorities in terms of market share and growing a dying game…

    Ironically RSA (pre and post JW) don’t strive to do either… they don’t have the problem of other games stealing their thunder so they don’t strive to ‘grow’ the game… nor do they endeavour to be trend-setters or leaders in the sport…

    Reply to cab @ 11:37 am:

    Urban myth Japies are ‘bigger’ than some of the other countries at the top level… as I stated above… bar the odd Cobus Caldo… Eng, Aus, NZ are our equals in physical stature… in fact our backs rank as ‘smaller’ than Aus, Tonga, NZ, Fiji…

  25. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 11:49 am:

    Yip it is how you – brand – your product.

    And with that I mean down to the Team levels of branding.

    Send me an “entertaining” team any day – and I will pack the stadium through marketing – how our tuff-no-nonsense-traditional team are going to skin them fancy-footers alive.

    “Come and enjoy the day with us – as we put these pansies in their place – rugby is not tiddlewinks you know – etc etc etc”

  26. Reply to The Brand @ 11:51 am:

    Agreed… anyone who says the old rules are boring… clearly didn’t enjoy the 98′ 3N… nor any of the RWC’s since then… not even the UK and French league finals…

    If that’s the case… then stiff sh!t… watch league, 7’s… or whatever tickles your fancy…

  27. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 11:49 am:

    Yip it is how you – brand – your product.

    And with that I mean down to the Team levels of branding.

    Send me an “entertaining” team any day – and I will pack the stadium through marketing – how our tuff-no-nonsense-traditional team are going to skin them fancy-footers alive.

    “Come and enjoy the day with us – as we put these pansies in their place – rugby is not tiddlewinks you know – etc etc etc”

    Sounds familiar – doesn’t it ???

  28. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 11:50 am:

    some of that i agree with especially the backs, but we can produce some enormous specimens – f’ck me have u seen the young boerseun prop at the bulls? oz simply don’t have that size imo.

  29. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 11:56 am:


    the funny thing is SA Rugby always had both “schools of thought” in any case.

    Noord Transvaal en Transvaal
    (forward attrition)


    WP en Vrystaat

    Natal was still a wet-dream yet to get the real deal

  30. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 12:03 pm:

    Same as in SA

    the moment some or other “genius” decoded stampkar rugby is the way to go – and used ‘ex-props’ as centers – we went off the rails.

    Watching primary schools games is a disgrace – to the extend that stampkar rugby is prevailing.
    They literally take a big – OK enough ball-skills forward and make them inside-centers – in order to crash over the gainline.

    Wings hardly ever receive the ball in primary school rugby anymore.

  31. ‘Lykit.

    How’s about we sommer make it Brannasdacht allready?
    Geez, wishing this day verby. Vroumense, ai!

  32. Reply to The Brand @ 12:09 pm:

    I almost fell into that trap and about 5 years ago played a 110kg giant at centre… after 3 games I was not satisfied and moved him to prop and now flank (he is blerry quick) therefore I now have ball players in my back-line and it makes a huge difference!

    Reply to Namboer @ 12:12 pm:

    I am all for that! Let me get my beer :support:

  33. Reply to cab @ 12:19 pm:

    this guy has no neck:
    Werner Kruger
    Position Prop
    Height 1,90m
    Weight 115kg
    Date of Birth 23/1/1985
    Place of Birth Bloemfontein
    Provincial Debut 2003
    Provincial Caps 41
    Provincial Points 10
    Super 12 Debut 2008
    Super 12 Caps 13
    Super 12 Points 5

  34. het te veel babbeltjies en maak my piepie. Besides, need something with a little more :nutkick: at this stage!

    Hoessit Stan! Sien jy dwarrel ook weer hier rond, hoekom die lang stilte?? Can you nogal believe it I’m cheering forre Bulls, sad story né.

  35. Reply to The Brand @ 12:00 pm:
    Natal was still a wet-dream to get the real
    deal :cuckoo:
    Yet currently all the fleet-footed-running-backs and forwards with attrition are slipping and sliding in the aftermath of this very , very satisfying wet- dream

  36. Not that we need their support…
    Dis ook al hoe die WP iewers gaan kom, met ander se hulp… :soek:

  37. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 12:32 pm:
    We havent won anything for years , BUT we are at least constantly almost every year in every competitions Semi or Final, that is more than i can say for any other SA team besides the Bulls :respek:
    Secondly this year is an mere formality , any bets , I will even anything you want to take me on for and we can pay the money into one of the guys running the Blogs account and he pays it to the winner and keeps 10% for himself as an Admin fee :thumbup:
    Reply to Stan @ 12:35 pm:

  38. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 12:36 pm:

    about your earlier comment I dont agree.

    NZ gave the world Lomu. Sivivatu etc no small boys but we delivered Spies and Bismarck in one crop whereas most countries might have one such player (athlete) in a lifetime.

    I bet we have bigger props in our top schools than what Oz has in its entire system. Bakkies is a young child monster – new kid from Bulls at lock dont grow beard yet but he is a monster.

    Yes other countries produce biggies but we still seem to produce them more often.

    Sad thing is many platteland areas find it hard to get their players exposed to unions or varsities etc. Was it not for this you’d see even more monster props and locks etc. get to the top.

  39. Sharks just think how much money you would have made in the last 12 years if you bet AGAINST your own team every time they reach a final!


  40. Watch-us-next-year Province is just as bad.

    How many semis have they missed the last 5 years?

  41. hell I’d almost put money on WP not making the semis again whilst at the same time have the most springboks selected for EOY tour…..

  42. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 1:36 pm:

    any team who makes the semis have a realistic chance of going all the way.

    Just WP with their 29 Million player budget seem to struggle making the semis in this 5 team competition.

  43. Reply to newbokshields @ 1:44 pm:

    why is that?? could it be that 12 of the players need to play for their country? rightly or wrongly they are still lost to their team and hence the team suffers.

    Imagine where the Bulls would be if Heyneke was bok coach? Then the bulls would have played CC with their u21 team and WP would be leading the way

  44. Remove Burger and Jean from current WP team and they still would not be able to beat most CC sides.


    Because most WP boks are not nearly the best in their respective positions in SA.

    I doubt if WP without those two will beat FS without Jean and Strauss? WP scouting system a bit fooked. Rassie should be able to fix this however.

  45. Eddie Moans himself took
    a very firm stand against
    the ELV’s.
    The thread was on RW a few
    days ago.

  46. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 11:30 am:

    So all in all we f…ed ourselves again
    Nope. The Boks got screwed by an
    out-of-his-depth know-nothing joke
    of a coach and his shit gameplans.

    The one we played according to our
    traditional strenghts we put 50
    past the Wobblies.

  47. Reply to JT – :boxing: @ 2:25 pm:

    the cape has 4 times more money and 4 times more players than bloem and griquas put together. You’d think they would have a strong enough squad to stay competative without Boks, like Natal has done?

    Vodacom cup was played together with super 14. FS vs Bulls in final?

    Hell we will continue to have this stupid non-debate just because you WP okes are too hard headed to ever concede defeat, except on a rugby field!

  48. Nope. The Boks got screwed by an
    out-of-his-depth know-nothing joke
    of a coach and his shit gameplans

    Reply to Boertjie @ 2:30 pm:

    or you are just a racist imperialist who dont understand the ‘native intellegence’

    :swart gevaar:

    hell I like that saying..

  49. Reply to newbokshields @ 2:37 pm:

    or you are just a racist imperialist who dont understand the ‘native intellegence’
    Nope. Can’t be a racist – there
    is f-all intelligence to speak of;
    not in the way the govern in Africa.

  50. en n goeie middag aan almal van julle.

    Ek hoop nie een van julle werk nie – want as jy op n Vrydag middag werk – is dit omdat jy nie in die week gewerk het nie.

    Soos ek!

  51. Dag oom piet.

    net nog `n W.U.N.Y Province supporter. nou gaan hulle seker debateer vir ure wat moet gebeur vir hulle overpaid and underperform sterre om die semis te haal.

    Perhaps WP not making semis is one huge plot by the third force (or the northern unions – thanks norman) to keep black players out of the limelight?

    anyways pappa going for a smoke.

  52. Reply to cab @ 12:43 pm:

    Palu, Tuguiri, Sailor, Blake, Horwill, McMeniman etc these guys are huge and fleet-footed…

    In league the likes Willie Mason etc are monsters with speed…

    And look no further than AFL for hundreds… yes hundreds of 195cm 100kg super-fiti potential flankers/locks playing, fortunately for the world with zero interest in rugby union…

    Basketball is huge here too with the Aussies in the world top 10, so plenty of tall timber goes here too before considering union…

    NBS… big fatties in the front row don’t mean a thing… look at the the likes of Hayman, Houtpiel, etc from NZ… beasts the size of locks with zero fat and dominating…

    But agree some of the Boere seuns are genetically monsters… hence the talent scouts from Aus at Craven week and age group rugby in RSA targeting disillusioned whites…

  53. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 2:26 am:

    targeting disillusioned whites…
    . . . whose numbers are
    multiplying by the day.

    Things like R1 billion being
    spent changing 27 street names
    in Pretoria – yet there are
    14 000 streets without names
    in its townships.

    But I really don’t care that
    much. Church Street is not the
    Church Street of old.

    And Pretoria resembles Lagos,
    which rhymes with chaos.

  54. Sad Boertjie… oh so sad for a country with so much potential at the grips of a new self serving regime!

  55. Reply to sharks30 @ 9:46 am:

    Was back in July… was not as bad as I expected though with pockets still really cool and in line with first world trends particularly the nightlife around Morningside… even went to Indian markets…

    However I could not get used to the electric fences and the constant checking over the shoulder and the infinite murder,rape and corruption in the newspapers…

    Wait for it… one of the ‘events’ whilst I was there was… two seperate police outfits barricading themselves behind cars on a busy street and having a gunfight… AGAINST EACH OTHER… all keeping their jobs the following week!

    None of that worry over here as I sit on my laptop with all the doors wide open and kids playing cricket in the street…

  56. Reply to sharks30 @ 9:46 am:

    I must admit I was really kakking myself around the Indian markets and disappointed with how the once vibrant side of the city is now slums…

    Wife and I walked the streets of Maputo 2 years back… and even though there’s HUGE poverty… there isn’t that sense of evil lurking at every corner like there is in RSA…

  57. Reply to Predawn @ 9:40 am:

    Went to Tapas to watch the rugga… and my sister got married around the corner at Crinkley Bottom…

    Never used to be much past when I first left in 94… now the estates are huge!

  58. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 11:59 am:
    Doubt it read in the Tribune over 1000ha of farmland , between Dbn and Pmb but still under Dbn Metro going up for Auction soon , designated for Developement being refered to as KZN’S Midrand

  59. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 11:38 am:

    I also got married at Crinkley..in 2001..small world. Going for wedding number 2 in November but having it way past Umhloti in the sticks.

    My dad has moved up to somewhere near iDube..close to Maritzburg. Talk about getting away from the city.

  60. Reply to Predawn @ 4:50 am:

    Rip-off merchants they are (Bobbie from Crinkley) spread the word if anyone else is thinking of using them…

    Whereabouts in the sticks… sounds great?

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