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Lions not giving up on Beast


“We don’t believe he has a proper contract.”
Golden Lions President Kevin de Klerk believes that the tug-o’-war between the Lions and the Sharks over the services of Springbok prop Tendai Mtawarira is not over yet, and the player’s decision will ultimately decide his fate.

Sharks CEO Brian van Zyl has indicated that the Sharks are adamant that Mtawarira has a binding contract with them and the matter has now been put to rest. De Klerk, however, believes there could still be one final twist in this ongoing saga.

De Klerk revealed his admiration for Mtawarira as a player to rugby365.com and explained why he believed there was still a chance that the Beast could become a Lions player in 2011.

“We’re not done with our negotiations [yet] and, ultimately, it is going to depend on the Beast where he wants to play his rugby,” De Klerk told rugby365.com.

“I don’t believe that he has a proper contract, but we don’t need – or want – to have to go to court to contest that.”

De Klerk compared Mtawarira’s current contract with the Sharks to the dispute between the same two unions a year ago that saw loose forward Willem Alberts and fullback Louis Ludik trade Johannesburg for Durban.

“It is a similar type of arrangement to the one we had with Willem Alberts and Louis Ludik where the contracts were not complete, so there was an opening for us to negotiate with him and we did on that basis,” he explained.

“We believe that we have a wonderful opportunity for him [Mtawarira] up here at the Lions with the new team that we are developing.

“We would love to have him on board, but we will respect his decision about where he would like to play,” he added.

The Lions are in a rebuilding phase with a number of young players coming through the ranks, and the financial backing of IT multi-millionaire Robert Gumede is allowing the union to purse a few more well-established players to mentor young starlets like Elton Jantjies and Jaco Taute to name just two.

However, should the ambitious move to lure the Springbok loosehead prop to Johannesburg fail, De Klerk is confident that coach John Mitchell has enough talent at his disposal to work with.

“We are pretty well layered and have some up-and-coming youngsters that are making big statements at the moment, so we are pleased about the road ahead,” he told this website.

De Klerk expects finality on this saga to be obtained “over the next few days”.


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    FFS we rarely if ever see this crap in Aus and NZ!

  2. Contracting wars are professional era things Bryce.


    All these truly professional organizations have contracting wars over perceived lucrative players like Wayne Rooney, Ronaldo etc..

  3. Reply to DavidS @ 1:04 pm:

    Well I’m talking about rugby in particular and the inevitable multi-season churlishness coming from those two and more in RSA… a pair of old ladies…

  4. Reply to DavidS @ 11:55 am:

    In those two cases the team teams were competing to sign players with contracts that were ending.

    The validity of the contracts were never in dispute and there never was more than one team claiming simultaneous rights to a player.
    That seems to be a SA rugby thing.

  5. Reply to DavidS @ 1:04 pm:

    The system in the US works very different than SA rugby.

    There is never disputes at about contract validity.
    Players do not practice with, or get paid by one team whilst another claim to have them under contract.
    Negotiations and trades are orderly and always inside the agreed upon windows.

  6. ps.

    And yes it’s ugly but recall that the contracting of players is not as regulated here as what it is in the USA and England

    Nevertheless the bidding wars are pretty much the same…

    And we were talking about the Beast contracting thing here weren’t we…

    As for the rest…

    well lawyers will be lawyers

  7. Reply to DavidS @ 10:18 pm:

    It’s not the same because in no instances here has contract validity been disputed.
    In no instances has teams negotiated with players outside of agreed upon structures.
    In the NFL, good players stay with a single team for the full terms of the contract. The only out is to retire. Failing players are released first before other teams may pick them up. Unhappy players are normally made available for trade by their teams first and negotiations are between team.

    In short the difference is order vs disorder.

  8. Reply to cab @ 3:17 am:

    The problem is that chaos has produced some amazingly cool things like for instance oh I don’t know…


    America is the product of chaos and unregulated growth and development.

  9. So is democracy

    In the words of Lord Vetinari

    Only despots want all men to pull together in the same direction

    Free men have free minds and all pull in different directions.

    The successful one is there for everyone to see…

  10. Let me put it this way

    South Africa are the present rugby world champions

    Super regulated Australia’s rugby has been in decline since 2003 despite ‘O Neill’s arrogant pronouncements to the contrary.

    Chaos and disorder (or if you want to be more stirring, freedom) produces success because it explores so many different options before the most successful emerges.

    This was very evident in 1999 – 2002 when Australian union dominated the world because they were able to enter the league playground with a fat chequebook and not bound to the strict rules that regulated transfers of players in NRL with the result that they did not care about salary caps and transfer windows and similar nonsense… from chaos emerged success.

    South Africa’s success IMO is based on the administrative chaos… we try everything… but (to be moedswillig) that is the nature of chaos and evolution).

    The staid ones who regulate themselves onto a path of “order” are doomed to die out when changes affect their order and change it… ask the dinosaurs who could not regulate their temperature when a metoer made it cold… but mammals who lived in a chaotic world where they had to hide from the sun could…

    Just saying

  11. Unregulated countries like China, Brazil, Russia and India are rapidly becoming the new superpowers of the world and in so doing casually killing the dominance of now super regulated Western Europe and America…

    A pattern that played out when Rome faced the so-called “Barbarians”

  12. When despotic and super regulated and well ruled bureaucratic Ottoman Turkey faced off against the fractuous divided chaos of Europe is was defeated too…


  13. I might also point out that when China was actually the world’s leading superpower in about 5th – 15th century it was eventually united and consolidated and bureaucratic and taxed it ran into a set of fractured upstart pretend naval countries and initially managed to easily fend off their initial exploration attempts. A Chinese fleet for instance with ships the size of the biggest clippers sailed round the Indian Ocean and invaded whole nations like Sri Lanka and conquered them but then the despotic King decided exploration was not for China and cancelled the whole venture.

    But eventually when these little upstart barbarians came back and were armed they quickly turned China into a resource for their economies…

    These silly little nations were


    Initial Chinese naval attacks wiped out Portuguese and Dutch attempts to explore and trade but when the Europeans came back with naval and not trade ships it was game over for the outdated ordered Chinese.

    Those nations, Spain, Portugal, Holland, England were the super powers of their time…

    Recall that Holland is the only nation after the Normans to successfully launch a seaborne invasion against England. Holland also defeated England and France in several trade wars.

    But besides that.

    The point is chaotic fractured disordered Europe, on two occasions defeated civilized united orderly nations.

    The same is now happening in reverse and Europeans are too stupid to realize it… hoping that exporting their civilized ordered way of life to the world will benefit everyone without realizing the world rejects it with contempt as a weakness…

    We look on China, India, Brazil and Russia and the myriad small powers like the barbaric Middle East as backwards places to be civilized into social liberal democratic values… without realizing that those self same values of civilization and order weakened other powers so that UNcivilized Europeans could crush them…

    Europe and Ameriac will become the Uncivilized world’s b—tches in fifty years with Shariah law and public executions and not understand how the hell it happened…

  14. not saying order or disorder are right or wrong, simple that it is imo the ultimate question.

    If disorder, why do we see pattern at all. If ordered, what caused such order and what about free will? and who will win the RWC2011?

  15. Reply to DavidS @ 11:43 am:
    “In the words of Lord Vetinari:
    Only despots want all men to pull together in the same direction”

    oh right, so what would you call the army then?

  16. Reply to cab @ 12:37 pm:

    In the words of Von Clausewitz (who is regarded as the greatest military philosopher ever)

    An instrument of diplomacy

    Thuis a tool to be wielded by a government of free men.

  17. ps. And by its need and purpose and hierarchy, being a tool, it is intrinsic that an army can never be a democratic society … BUT the beauty of chaos is that IT CAN EXIST WITHIN A CHAOTIC SOCIETY as part of it.

  18. If you look at armies they are in fact also constantly developing things and if you look at the armies of Western Europe and America now they have enetered what is traditionally the final phase of their development before they are defeated because the culture the defend has become corrupted.

    Armies work like this

    First you will get a rabble that defends its village. A good example is the way blacks in South Africa in the 80;s threw stones at armoured cars of the SAP that came to their townships.

    Then you will have something like levies where in event of a threat all men will come to defence of their society. This was used by European feudal lords in the so-called Dark Ages.

    Then you have the citizen duty stage… where serving your nation is seen as a public duty. This was prevalent in Rome and Greece and Egypt at the zenith of their powers as well as the USA that obtained its independence from the UK.

    Then you have the conscript stage where men of a certain age are required to do military duty. This is like Napoleanic armies as well as those of WW1. You have a cadre of officers and NCO’s who serve professionally but the bulk of the men are enlisted.

    Then you have the professional armies, those where soldiering is a profession, so people become professional soldiers… as in they do it for a job.

    Latter day Rome and present day USA and Europe are good examples of this type of army.

    Unfortunately history also records that when faced with a serious threat from a conscript or citizen army the professionals are invariably the weakest type of military system to have.


    Dar Es Islam
    Eastern Rome
    Germany vs USSR in WW2
    France v Viet Minh
    Britain v USA
    USA, Britain, Germany etc vs Afghanistan

  19. The only exception to the rule is the initial parts of WW2 where Germany’s wholly professional army easily outmaneuvered and defeated the French and British conscripts inside of six weeks.


    The difference was in leadership where the French and British were particularly poorly lead whilst Germany was blessed with the finest field commanders since Batu and Temujin and Sabutai lead the Mongols.

    In Von Manstein, Rommel, Guderian, Bock and the like the Germans had collected a group of outstanding field commanders and in Von Moltke fashion…. the campaign was won at the planning tables… the outcome of the attack once it was launched was a foregone conclusion.


    That is on of the only examples where professionals beat conscripts on attack.

    However recall that when the German professionals attacked the conscripted Russians in 1941 the Germans were rudely surprised by the vehemence of resistance as opposed to that encountered in Poland, Holland, France etc, and eventually the Russian conscripts stopped them and caused so many losses the Germans were forced to bring on conscription of their own..

    Eventually the Russian conscripts won…

    Hitler’s delusions of military and strategic adequacy helped but in the end the professionalism of Germany’s soldiery lost to Russia’s part time conscripts…

  20. The NFL has had contract concerns, read this article from 2010:


    One thing to note is that in no instance is more than one team involved. The only option the player has is to “hold out”, in other words to refuse to play or practice with his team. If the team thinks he is worth more than his current contract, they may re-negotiate to get him playing, but if not, the player is forced to sit out from all football, they can not train or play with any other team until the current contract expires.

    Next, every professional sports league in North America has negotiated minimal contract requirements with the “Player’s Association” or union. These negotiations result in a multi-year contract between the players and the leagues. This contract drives all contracts established between the teams (franchises of the league) and the players. There are certain required clauses, like contracts can be traded between teams, no player can be contracted to one team and playing or practicing with another team, no team can negotiate with a player under contract until the “free agent window” after the contract expires. Teams with contracts can negotiate extensions at any time. The contracts ensure this tom foolery seen in SA Rugby does not happen. The problem is that SANZAR and SARU have not negotiated with the Player’s Associations to establish contracting requirements. If these entities established contracting rules this would end very quickly.

    The system in North America is tilted towards players staying with the same team, the contracting rules enforce this, the only thing on the “players moving to other teams” side is the salary cap, which limits the team with a contract’s ability to resign players for large salaries.

  21. Reply to Dancing Bear @ 3:23 pm:

    no team can negotiate with a player under contract until the “free agent window” after the contract expires.
    I thought that was initially how it was supposed to be – the open window period.

  22. I agree with some of the things Dawie says.

    Fewer rules are better than more. They need to be enforced though, regardless of the amount.

    That is the problem in SA rugby. Not a lack of rules but rather a lack of enforcement. In such an environment the unscrupulous have an unfair advantage.

  23. Hmmm DB

    This system presupposes a decent strengthened players “union” which is something we certainly do not have in any rugby league I know of.

    I know MLB had a year long strike a few years ago about salaries that was VERY unpopular with fans.

    In SA that can NEVER EVER EVER happen …. well I don’t think SARPA has the balls to do that… they are effectively a toothless hound that sits behind the house and yaps one soft bark questioningly when it hears a window break in the front of the house at two in the morning…

    Hennie Le Roux has REALLY done players a disservice.

  24. Reply to cab @ 12:34 pm:

    Disorder inside an orderly framework.

    Freedom of movement for people, goods and ideas with a means of resolving all disputes in a non-violent way.

    Chaos without violence.

  25. Reply to DavidS @ 2:20 pm:

    Every country needs regulating. But the regulations should make sense and it must be able to ENFORCE them.

    SA probably has more laws on the books than most other countries, but zero enforcement:
    Cellphone drivers.
    Seatbelt-less drivers.
    Reckless drivers ignoring speed limits, red robots, solid white lines.
    Unroadworthy vehicles.
    Drivers without licences.

    There are a myriad of laws and regulations that DON’T and CANNOT be enforced – because the will and expertise is lacking and because we have a population that has no self regulation – and that includes (perhaps even the majority?) of whites.

    Of praat ons nie van dieselfde ding nie?

  26. Reply to DavidS @ 2:20 pm:

    Mate with all due respect Australia is a mere infant in the grand-scheme of things and is alive and ever-evolving into one of the best countries to live in… in every respect from the economy to education to infrastructure to lifestyle choice…

    Reply to Boertjie @ 2:39 pm:

    You’re spot-on… the failure to regulate is far worse than some of the ‘lefty-tolerant-punishment’ in the Western world…

  27. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 3:12 pm:

    Great story about Don Bradman:

    Get’s stopped for speeding – 72 km/h in a 60 zone which he thought was a 80 zone.

    “Driver’s licence, please. Uhm, are you THE Sir Donald Bradman?”
    “Yes, I am.”
    “Pleasure to meet you, Sir Donald!”
    “I’m sorry I can’t say the same.”

    In the end he got a fine of A$173 – which he paid.

  28. Reply to DavidS @ 2:20 pm:

    Far from dying.
    Most people in the west are doing just fine and will be freer and wealthier than people in China for our lifetimes and more.

  29. Reply to Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes @ 9:59 pm:


    By 2020 the Chinese will be militarily stronger than the West… in some technologies it already has parity… in some cases with Western help.

    If you look at Chinese methodology as well as that of India all their wealth is being spent on self prestige enhancement.

    The Olympics was an orgy of self aggrandisement not seen since 1936… but hey ignore it if you want.

    Chinese and Indian involvement in Africa is pure resource hunting… a second “scramble for Africa” if you want.

    China already owns more US Bonds and reserves than the US itself…

    The Middle Eastern nations will PROSPER from peak oil because OPEC will be able to heighten prices and with their economic might increasing over that of the West the Chinese and Indians will be able to BUY more whilst Russia as a producer will also benefit greatly.

    Those nations have no love for the West and its corpulence and moral degrading tolerance of all that is corrupt…

    The West is heavily reliant on oil and all its bureaucratic self regulatory costs will strangle its ability to react nimbly to the threat…

    Russia doesn’t like the West

    China doesn’t like the West

    Middle East does not like the West

    Not in our lifetimes

    But by 2050 the West will be like the Western Roman empire of 250AD and beyond

    A spent force shriveling up and dying under the weight of its own inability to react to threats to its own vulgaris liberal humanities existence, as opposed to the stern moralistic views of the threats it faces… China executes prostitutes, the Middle East punishes premarital sex, India prohibits kissing in public…

    Their emigres are not coming to the West to be assimilated by the lights and flesh pots… they are there to destroy them… but hey… ignore 9/11 and 7/7 and Chinese military buildups and Indian purchases of the whole IT industry and television broadcast organizations while closing off its own market to foreign investment…

    And the West isn’t…

    Our kids will pay for this though…

  30. Reply to DavidS @ 11:52 pm:

    I think I am getting a handle on your problem. You read current events in the same way you read history.

    All facts and no sense.
    Loads of information combined with complete a lack of insight.

    I’ll point out some for you.

    As a big bondholder China is dependent on and trusting in the US economy. It is when China stop buying US bonds that we should perhaps worry.

    India is naturally aligned with the West.

    Peak oil is nonsense. Oil may be found allover the earth. The advantage of the Middle East is just that theirs is very cheap. High prices thus works against them in the long term.

  31. Reply to DavidS @ 11:52 pm:

    Actually China long started flogging their US bonds and paper money in favour of Gold…

    But yes… countries with strong governments and vast mineral resources will rule the world…

    This is exactly why Aus is so well placed… they are the second highest Gold producer behind China… own 40% of the world Uranium on top of their huge Iron Ore resources… and are second only behind China for REE (Rare Earth’s where traders are making a mint atm)…

    But just as important is they have both the infrastructure and intellect capital to evolve with the above…

  32. Reply to bryce_in_oz @ 11:07 am:

    But just as important is they have both the infrastructure and intellect capital to evolve with the above…
    Which SA don’t have.
    Nationalising everything won’t work, or will it?

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