Home ELV's O’Neill warns of split over ELVs

O’Neill warns of split over ELVs


Australian rugby chief John O’Neill yesterday warned that the game is in danger of a worldwide split over the new law variations.

Peter Bills writes for The NZHerald that the ARU chief executive believes there are severe consequences for the game in both hemispheres from the key Northern Hemisphere countries’ decision to go back on their original promise to trial sanctions and offside at the breakdown from this September.

“You would hate to think we will end up with a situation where we have two games in world rugby. But that could happen. No one wants to see that happen but ultimately, unless there is a degree of reasonableness here, it could. This has to be done and dusted by the end of next year otherwise you will run out of time before the next World Cup.

“We are simply saying to England, Wales and Ireland, ‘give it a fair go because until you have had a universal trial of all the ELVs, you cannot make an informed judgment’. Just to sit back and say we are not trialling them is not in the best interests of the world game.

“What we are seeing is a tremendous test to the IRB’s leadership to stare down England, Wales and Ireland and force them to find competitions to trial particularly the sanctions.”

O’Neill admitted that the Southern Hemisphere countries are frustrated by what he called “those three countries recanting on their original undertaking to find competitions to trial particularly the sanctions”.

He talked of “silly combative conversations” with the Northern Hemisphere nations. “They feel they have been ambushed by these, despite the fact that the IRB set out publicly and clearly a timetable for the trialling. But when the Northern Hemisphere was asked to go ahead, it was like Hiroshima, like an atom bomb was dropped.”

But until that happened, he said, there could be no meaningful dialogue as to the future and the present impasse would continue. But the tough-talking Australian warned of trouble ahead.

“Nothing I say nor South Africa or New Zealand can force the Northern Hemisphere countries to trial these laws in full. The body with the only real clout is the IRB. If they bottle that decision I am not sure what we do because we can’t go back to the old laws.

“The players and spectators here have made it perfectly clear which set of laws they prefer. In the last two weekends, we have seen two wonderful test matches between New Zealand and South Africa under the new laws. We have also seen test matches between Southern and Northern Hemisphere countries played under the old laws and you don’t have to be Einstein to figure out which game is a far more impressive spectacle.”

O’Neill also expressed his alarm over the financial guarantee the IRB is said to be demanding from each host country for future Rugby World Cups starting in 2015. They are seeking $318.13 million, an increase of 150 per cent. Such figures, he conceded, could rule out most rugby playing nations around the world from staging the tournament.

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  1. The FK law at the break down has been dropped but watching the 3N I think it may have a place… Pitty it will not be trialed in the NH.

  2. Something else I want clarity on – when does a tackle situation – become a ruck?

    (afraid another forward backwards pass – interpretation might be lurking somewhere )

  3. Key words, on their feet.

    When only tackler and tackled player, it is a tackle situation.

    If only on guy joins, it is still only a tackle situation but he has to enter/play the ball from the right side.

    The only player allowed to play the ball from an ‘off-side’ position is the tackler, but only if he is on his feet and does so before a ruck is formed.

  4. Thanks Morne

    SO let’s disect a bit.

    Player A1 is tackled by player B1.
    Both or one is one the ground (being a bodypart other than feet is making contact with ground)

    These two are then joined by – how many others – from each side before a ruck is formed ???

    Two from each side A1 + A2 and B1 + B2 = ruck ???


    two one side + one other side

    A1 + B1 + B2 = ruck ???

    or A1 + A2 + B1 = ruck ???

  5. Reply to Morneno @ 8:17 am:

    Great – that is why I also want to know – when EXACTLY the ruck is formed.

    Important I presume is that the – ball – is on the ground.
    If the ball is in the ‘air’ / above ground / held up / on top of body or bodypart = maul ???
    Is that correct regarding difference between maul and ruck ???

  6. A1 and B1 is not allowed to play the ball at all until they get back to their feet.

    A ruck can only form from people on their feet.

    So a typical situation would be A1 and B1 are both on the ground (tackled situation = no ruck).

    A2 joins through the gate and if he is alone, can play the ball.

    A2 and B2 comes to the tackled situation at the same time and make contact with one another, all the while staying on their feet, it is now a ruck and no-one is allowed to play the ball on the ground.

    APART from the scrummie or person playing scrummie, NOT JOINED at the ruck, playing the ball, i.e. picking it up to pass.

    The other scenario, Richie McCaw/Schalk Burger…

    McCaw/Burger = B1

    B1 tackles A1. B1 immediately gets to their feet and attempts to play the ball, they can do so without having to enter through the gate.

    A2 joins as soon as B1 tries to play the ball, now it is a ruck and neither A2 or B1 may play the ball with their hands.

    You do not need 2 players from each side, only 1 from each side.

  7. Reply to Morneno @ 8:26 am:

    Dankie Morne

    That made it clear to me.

    Now my next question is – if the ruck has been formed – which seems to me to be the case 99% of the time during games – WHY are the players A1 + A2 + B1 or A1 + B1 + B2 still allowed contact with the ball???

  8. Reply to The Brand @ 8:30 am:

    Only a player not bound to the ruck, i.e scrummy, is allowed to use his hands, given he is on-side and on his feet, to play the ball.

    What you see on TV a lot is A1 being tackled by B1, then B1 jumps to his feet, immediately trying to steal the ball from the player he just tackled, A1.

    A1 however is allowed to place the ball, and by law, may not be stopped from trying to attempt to place the ball, given he does so immediately.

    Now B1 already has his hands on the ball while A1 holds on a bit or tries and place the ball (no ruck has formed) and A2 joins.

    But B1 already has his hands on the ball so he was playing the ball ‘legally’ before the ruck formed (A2 joining).

    He is then allowed to play the ball.

    It is seconds, and sometimes even quicker when this happens.

    The ref needs to look for;

    1) Tackled situation, was the tackle legal.
    2) Who is on their feet and off their feet.
    3) Did A1 place the ball immediately.
    4) Did B1 come to his feet first before attempting to play the ball.
    5) Did any other player join the ruck legally.
    6) Did they stay on their feet.
    7) If the tackler B1 did not get to his feet immediately did he make an attempt to roll away allowing A1 to place the ball.
    Did anyone impede A1 from placing the ball.
    9) Did A1 hold onto the ball.

    To name just a few, and usually, he has to make all these decisions in about 3 to 5 seconds.

  9. Reply to The Brand @ 8:33 am:

    Yes, you may only play the ball in any instance in rugby when on your feet.

    Apart from the tackled player being allowed to place a ball in any direction given he does so immediately.

  10. Morne

    I am going to sketch a scenario – please fill in the gaps in my thinking process !!!

    Player A1 gets tackled by player B1 – both stay on ground and ball is ‘grounded’.

    Scenario 1
    Player A2 arrives at tackle and stays on his feet plays the ball = fine = no ruck.

    Scenario 2
    A2 arrives first at tackle and puts his hands on the ball (ball still on the ground) – B2 arrives half-second / second later and make physical contact with A2 = ruck = players not allowed to play the ball with hands any more – if they do = penalty.

    Is this correct ???

  11. Reply to Morneno @ 8:41 am:

    “But B1 already has his hands on the ball so he was playing the ball ‘legally’ before the ruck formed (A2 joining).

    He is then allowed to play the ball.”

    That is why a Waugh and Brussow does not even attempt to ‘remove’ the ball – they are there first – stay on their feet and simply holds onto the ball.

    Sometime one even hear the ref screech – ruck – yet a player pops up with the ball and the ref then says – it’s fine he was on his feet :realangry: :realangry: :realangry:

    We were taught – it moment the ruck is formed you have to – STOP PLAYING the ball with your hands – and ONLY use your feet !!!

  12. Reply to The Brand @ 8:46 am:

    Yes penalty or free-kick depending on which laws apply.

    A2 had the opportunity to play the ball before it was a ruck. When B2 arrives it is no longer just a tackled situation so he has to leave the ball alone on the ground.

    He had the opportunity, did not take it, ruck formed, no players are allowed to play the ball on the ground.

    Reply to The Brand @ 8:49 am:

    Yes, if you are off your feet you are out of the game. You may not play the ball or tackle any player.

    Again apart from the tackled player who may place, or pass the ball on the ground given he does so immediately.

  13. Reply to The Brand @ 7:57 am:


    That was one of the ELVs that really offered the attacking team reward if they could break the first line of defense. Opened up the game.

    that they dropped it.

  14. Reply to The Brand @ 8:54 am:

    Refs are often wrong, in fact most of the time.

    A2 is allowed to play the ball but as soon as B2 arrives and he has not yet won the ball a ruck has no formed and he must let the ball go on the ground.

    If he has won the ball, i.e. ball is in his hands and a split second later 2 or 4 players join he may continue to play the ball because he won it before a ruck was formed, hence refs saying he was on his feet.

    It is then, as far as I read the laws, no longer a ruck anymore.

  15. Reply to Morneno @ 8:57 am:

    That was wrong.

    If he wins the ball legally no ruck was ever formed, players joining a split second later does not constitute a ruck, but rather a maul if they bind onto the player who just won the ball.

  16. Reply to The Brand @ 8:54 am: Reply to Morneno @ 8:54 am:

    So the key is – if the ball is still on the ground the MOMENT the ruck is formed = HANDS OFF !!!


    if the first player on his feet – picked the ball off the ground (even 1 inch) he did so – legally – before ruck was formed and therefore may CONTINUE to play the ball.

    Correct ???

  17. Reply to The Brand @ 8:46 am:

    Reply to Morneno @ 8:57 am:

    In scenario 2 if the palyer already has his hands on the ball, he has played the ball legally. If B2 joins and makes contact, it can be seen as another tackle and not the formation of the ruck. Correct?

  18. Reply to The Brand @ 9:00 am:

    That is how I understand it. The player that picked up the ball can be tackled legally.

    Even if he just has his hands on the ball that is lieing ont he ground, the opposition has the right to tackle him.

  19. Donner remember the definition of a ruck.

    Two or more players in contact with one another over a ball that is on the ground.

    If the ball is not on the ground, it is not a ruck.

    If the player has his hands on the ball and the ball is still on the ground, he can be cleaned out of course but as soon as contact is made by two players on their feet over a ball on the ground, fingers on it or not – it is a ruck.

  20. Thanks Morne

    This cleared it up for me – I am afraid watching games are now going to be even more frustrating – knowing how seldom and in-consequent the referees blow the ruck/no-ruck Law.

    Is there any referee who blows this effectively ???

    Is this the rational behind allowing hands in the ‘ruck ‘ in the ELVs proposed – because referees can’t apply the Law effectively ???

  21. a compromise will need to be met or rules abbreviated.

    ie…..free kicks from ruck infringements. No problem with that, but the team awarded the free kick must be allowed the option of kicking the ball out AND having line out put in.

    The new lineout law looks pretty dumb to me so far….is this one needed?

  22. The new laws have to be made to look attractive to NH teams as well.

    At the moment, I get a feeling that they only look attractive to the kiwis and ozzies.

    a law abbreviation like the one I just spoke of would suit all sides. Kiwis can continue scrumming instead of lineouts.Boks can lineout instead of scrumming,etc..

    People need to think….imagine Scotland winning a free kick against the AB;s or England for that matter and then they are forced to scrum? What sort of advantage is that from a free kick?

  23. Reply to St.Petersburgbok @ 9:34 am:

    Can’t agree more.

    Under ‘old’ Laws – transgression at ruck – penalty.

    It slooowed the game down – and penalties decided matches.

    Giving the teams the extra option of run – scrum – lineout own ball is brilliant !!!

  24. Reply to St.Petersburgbok @ 9:34 am:

    The best thing about your suggestion to me – apart from extra option – is:

    Now teams can really gain field position from transgressions – rather than kak penalty for the posts.

    Therefore – the probability for tries improve substantially.

  25. Reply to St.Petersburgbok @ 9:23 am:

    Line-outs under the new laws favour the defending side too much.

    One aspect, guy at the back of the line-out (when they have superior numbers under the new laws) does not need to worry about binding or countering a maul, but has a clean, 10 meter dash at the oppo 10 from the 15 meter line.

    AB’s do this well and puts our 10 under pressure.

  26. Reply to Morneno @ 9:40 am:

    Morne it will slow the game down even more – that is the fast balls from rucks.

    It will also increase the risk of severe injuries – I don’t like the idea of having players with their eyes at the ground and a Bakkies screaming in with his hits.
    That he gets away with it – is beyond me

    I would like the referees to start applying the Law as we discussed it here this morning – THEY DON’T !!!

    Then the most effective way of winning a ruck ball would be to stay on your feet and clear OVER the ball.

    Now there is tooo great an incentive to ‘fall’ / ‘close’ the ball down !!!

  27. tiFFing between the RFU with the Australian Apostle of the ELV’s or not,

    “England appoint Smith attack coach
    Eurosport – Mon, 14 Jul 16:49:00 2008

    England have appointed London Irish director of rugby Brian Smith as their attack coach.

    More StoriesFlutey named in England squad
    Johnno must launch new era
    Smith (pictured), a former Australia and Ireland international half-back, is England manager Martin Johnson’s first signing since he took charge at the beginning of this month.

    The 41-year-old joins John Wells (forwards), Mike Ford (defence) and Graham Rowntree (scrum) in the England senior coaching team with immediate effect.

    “The appointment of Brian is great news for the England set up as we look forward to the increased time we have with the players under the new agreement with Premier Rugby Limited,” Johnson said.

    “Brian is a top attack coach and I’m sure he will be a real asset to us. His appointment finalises the senior coaching team for next season.”

    Smith, who guided London Irish to the Heineken Cup semi-finals last season, has made no secret of his wish to join Johnson’s team and goes with the blessing of the Exiles after three years with the Guinness Premiership club.

    “The opportunity to coach at international level comes along rarely in one’s career so I’m looking forward to my new position with England, it’s an exciting time to be involved,” said Smith.

    “I would like to thank London Irish for the opportunity the club has given me and especially its exceptional supporters for all the encouragement I’ve received.”

    Smith’s appointment will be seen as a welcome addition to the England set-up following their disappointing tour to New Zealand last month.

    England lost both Tests heavily and seemed bereft of a discernable attacking plan, as well as the ability to finish off several try-scoring opportunities.

    Smith developed a reputation for exciting and open rugby at London Irish and looks set to have a big say in the style England will adopt ahead of their four internationals this autumn.

    London Irish director John Conlan said: “We’re pleased that the negotiations with the RFU for the release of Brian Smith from his contract have been conducted in a good natured way and concluded to the satisfaction of both parties. We wish him well for his new role with England.

    “On behalf of all at London Irish I would like to thank Brian for his contribution to the club over the past three seasons. It has been an era of significant progress that we are determined to build on.”

    They appointed an oZZie as an “attack” coach!

    Makes you think they want to stall the inevitable so that they can build some capacity ball in hand- whilst keeping their traditional weapon- ” the pack coached by Rowntree” intact!

    Klevah – ek scheme!

    CoachDiv- take note- mybru!

  28. Reply to Morneno @ 9:43 am:

    he he he I agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I think the referees are not applying the – stay on feet – part of the Law effectively.

    At the ruck – if a player goes down = penalty finish and klaar or :rule9:

  29. Reply to The Brand @ 9:47 am:

    I dont think so.

    Firstly it will commit more players to rucks in order to compete for the ball.

    Secondly, the referee now only has to look for guys on their feet, and entering through the gate.

    There will be greater emphasis on cleaning out something we are kak in.

    And it is not so easy to play the ball in rucks as you think, if you have to enter legally and stay on your feet.

    It will make offensive teams clear rucks quicker in fear of losing the ball with defenders coming in and being able to use their hands.

  30. Reply to Morneno @ 10:00 am:

    That makes sense.

    I absolutely hate the Bulls and Euro – look and see approach by scrummies at the ruck.

    This will stop that to a large extend.

    It will commit more players to the rucks – yes!

    two worries:
    1. Safety of player with eyes on the ground
    2. Applying the ‘going off your feet’ Law.

  31. I don’t know another sport in the world that has been changing rules and laws so frequently for the last 17 years. :cuss:

    Kiwis and Aussies influence inside the IRB tend to manipulate the Rules so to change the same nature of the Union Code. :sick:

    ELVs :poop: :puke: are spoiling the Union Code.

    It’s difficult to see many differences with the League Code.

  32. MorenO

    I have to agree with TB – The new hands in the ruck bit is goping to cause a shedload of injuries – Myself as a lock can’t wait for this new rules to come into play in the NH. Now you can legally run into people at rucktime – You don’t have to be the first at the ruck anymore :wave: but you can clean the crap out of the opposition.

    I will let you know around 22 Aug what I think of the new rules.

    TB – I did the run on Sunday morning – pretty rough. Couldn’t do it yesterday – raining – but I did the same thing on the stationary bike.


  33. Pta Zoo to roar with changes
    Skuif hulle nou die Bulle
    se hok tot langs die ape
    se hok?

  34. Jis Boertjie

    Gister het jy Donner se kans om die toaster te wen ook opgedinges.

    Ek dink nie Boertjie bestaan regtig nie – Hy is ‘n bot wat comments post sodra mens naby die toaster kom.


  35. Reply to Methos @ 12:01 pm:

    Hier is die naweek ‘n 24-jarige
    lat van Hammies na die game dood.
    Nog met die manne gepraat, toilet
    toe gegaan en toe sommer net gedood.

    Lykskouing sal dalk meer vertel.

  36. Boertjie

    Het gelees daarvan – Tragedie. Dis altyd baie hartseer as sulke dinge gebeur. Onthou jy daai McKenzie ou wat net laasjaar ook net dood is – almal het griep gehad in die weke voor hulle dood. Ek speel nooit weer met griep nie.


  37. The hands in the ruck ELV has been dropped before it even had a trial…

    The elv were introduced to make the life easier for the ref and spectators… IMO they should have just applied the laws in the book strictly and unilateraly but NOOO the Aussies and their constant bitching about entertainment factor… Well if they can’t promote the game in their country it is their bloody problem! And all this talk of bringing league and union together as one code makes me want to :puke:
    WE DO NOT NEED LEAGUE! Explain that to O’Neil!

  38. Reply to Methos @ 11:31 am:

    He he he . . . what is – pretty rough ???

    Yes I wanted to mention it – can cycle – instead of,
    thought the better – that is something Triathletes do – constantly cross-training – not rugga-players

  39. TB

    Got the bike for free when I bought my weights – It helps – espescially in this climate.

    Yeah was rough – but afterwards you think back and say – well – it was only 12 min. And during it you just think – only 6 more minutes. Mind over matter.

    Seen the video ?


  40. Reply to JT – :pdv: @ 12:15 pm:

    “IMO they should have just applied the laws in the book strictly and unilaterally”

    Can’t agree more !!!

    Clearing up some cause for confusion in my own mind lately – he he he – the forward ‘backwards’ pass thingy did it :evil: – given how the Law is applied at the rucks in CC and Super 14 and now the Tests.

    The Law is great – NOW APPLY IT – FFS !!! :soapbox:

  41. Reply to Methos @ 12:21 pm:

    Nope !!!

    Understand you comment about your brother’s potential even better – can see some constant coaching been done by Pa – he he he – it helps, does it not?

  42. TB

    I will upload a vid of him over the weekend – much better than me but I will kill you if you ever tell him I said so


  43. Reply to Methos @ 12:21 pm:

    Awesome awesome awesome memory.

    Do it as often as possible – even if you have to copy and paste coaches footage.

    When we participate we seldom think it valuable – it is!!!

    I have zero – such footage.

    Always – way back – thought the guys ‘collecting’ footage was dip-sticks.

    Only time I did it and could convince myself of my “nobleness” was building my personal portfolio for sponsors.

    I am now sooooooo glad I did – guess who was really the dip-stick way back when.

    My son don’t believe me when I tell him about what I did – sporting wise in the past

  44. Reply to Methos @ 12:30 pm:

    Great look forward to it.

    Man, I was soooo often a real doos when I was younger.

    Some say – I still am . . . . . . .


    :finger: :whatever: : bigfinger:

    :rule9: :rule9: :rule9:

    :realangry: :realangry: :realangry:

  45. TB

    I collected it for Ananlysis – then when we were planning to come overseas they require a package to see you playing rugby – too many players have screwed clubs over – tell them he is on the verge of springbok selection and then they get here and can’t catch a ball. But good memories as well.


  46. Reply to Methos @ 12:37 pm:

    Great that you ‘had to’ do it

    If you have a video – ask your wife to take some footage when you are playing on ‘her side’ of the field – zooming in to a circle minimum 10 meters and maximum 20 meters ‘around’ the ball.

    (Ball in middle of ‘coverage’-circle = 5 to 10 meter radius.)

    Not the whole time – just a minute here and there – every now and then during a game.

    Especially those – frozen – games

    Just keep on adding to same disk/tape – no pressure – then at end of season take a day and edit it into the year’s – rugby memories.

    Hear me and hear me well – 20 years from now you are going to be sooooo glad you did !!!

  47. TB

    I have to get a video camera first – have been thinking of getting one – will have to start seriously looking for one.

    The team I’m playing for now has a photographer that comes to each home game and takes bunch of pictures – also good memories.


  48. Reply to The Brand @ 12:51 pm:

    Why these ‘ramblings’ of an ‘old man’ ???

    In ’95 I spend a month at Victoria Falls – rafting and kayaking the Zambezi.

    Zero footage – not photos or videos – :evil: :evil: :evil: :realangry: :realangry: :realangry: – at myself

    It was awesome – and I only have ‘my’ stories

    I have only memories – and official video of WorldCamps – I was ‘belated’ manager of SA Team.

  49. Reply to Methos @ 12:54 pm:

    Photos – are 2nd best.

    But how can a photo EVER tell how you – bash through the defence – leaning forward at 70 – 80 – 90% angle at core – driving with the legs – even while ‘going-down’ still gaining 3 to 4 meters :respek:

  50. I am gone for hour or so – look forward to TJ’s comments to the video.

    I loved it – as you gathered – great stuff man, great stuff !!!

    Yes – and even if I have to say it – you can play.

    Question – why only club-rugby ???
    Don’t have to answer – just wondering.

    Ek het darem maar al kak in wiepie No 4 trui gesien die laaste jaar of wat, jong.

  51. Didn’t know what happened – was still going for the chargedown – a bit into the sun and the next moment my head exploded – couldn’t see the ball coming because of the sun – though someone hit me from behind. Knees just went weak. But got up and played till the whistle went and then went down again to have the bl;ood from my nose stopped. Felt like a right tit when I watched that on video.


  52. Reply to Methos @ 1:13 pm:

    he he he – that was funny man.

    Looked like a dronkie who haaked-vas on a rope on the ground – with the knees buckling like that – ha ha ha :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  53. Cosa

    Please drop me a mail.

    Donner, could you provide him with my addy?


  54. Reply to Methos @ 1:39 pm:

    So – ‘evidence’ – of moerse pull-away.

    Also ‘that’ fast over 40 60 80 100 meters ???

    Remember the work TG did with you ?

    Same applies to charging-down a ball being kicked.

    How most players don’t ‘get’ it is beyond me :roll: :cuckoo: :noshake:

  55. How can they say the fans love the elvs whilst spectator numbers for the S14 is down from last year?

  56. TB

    “So – ‘evidence’ – of moerse pull-away.” – Nah – I would say more evidence of a kak kick

    Tb I’m not slow – but not a racehorse either.
    I have scored a try from our own 22 at WP Disa trials – was knackerd after that tough.

    Reply to The Brand @ 1:55 pm:

    A Snick ‘o meter


  57. Donner + Boertjie

    A couple of days ago rugrat “Sharks 30” agreed to swap email addresses with me.
    Please can you let me have his?

    Moreover I wonder whether “onerb” also agrees to swap his email address with mine…

  58. Anybody on the site is welcome to my adress. I get so many ads for cheap viagra, penis enlargements and millions from dead Nigerian clients, a few more spams won’t change anything.

  59. Reply to Methos @ 2:16 pm:

    I once won a “lucky draw” from Microsoft. £1m. For about 30 mins I was actually stunned. Somebody then told me about the scams and I visited that specific site as well, to report the scam.

    I heard on the news that some of the kingpins for the 419 scams was arrested late last week.

    I still receive offers of eternal riches about twice a week.

    I am forever doomed to dodge the poorhouse on my own. :evil:

  60. Cosa

    Jip – bought a rod and all – bought the license @ £ 25 – got a place where you can fish for free – cast a lot of lines but caught fookall.


  61. Reply to Methos @ 4:44 pm:

    We played against an English team (Butleigh RFC) and only lost 32-26 and then we played a French team Rambertois and lost 24-20.
    We are 2nd in Austria – The standard is going up every season but physically/athletically we are not up to it yet.

  62. JT

    I was watching them just now. Searched for Innsbruck & Buttleigh and found soem of them – Is that Lock OK ? The one that got MURDERED in the tackle.


  63. JT

    That is the one – poor bugger – When he was fantasizing about being double teamed that wasn’t it…


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